Author Topic: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives  (Read 31149 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2014, 07:14:10 AM »
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2014, 08:39:05 AM »
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.


In otherwords, a Sea Dingo? ;)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 06:07:01 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2014, 10:23:25 AM »
Why ever not?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2014, 10:44:45 PM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2014, 01:55:12 AM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2014, 03:40:00 AM »
XP-86 straight wing I think would have been a really nice aircraft to fly, found quite a few other aircraft which seem to have been influenced by it ---

Offline Volkodav

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2014, 08:09:16 PM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).

I am thinking in terms of a CAC follow on from, or be built instead of, the CA32 Avon Sabre, something that could have realistically been developed locally but still offered a worthwhile increase in performance and above all would be easy to model  ;)

Offline Weaver

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2014, 02:22:32 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 04:43:02 AM by Weaver »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2014, 07:26:20 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle,

You can get just the fuselage from High Planes (got one right on my workbench at the moment), everything else comes from a Hobbycraft or Fujimi kit.

Offline Weaver

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2014, 09:33:38 AM »
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of £20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.

Now on the other hand, I've already got an Emhar FJ-4 which was cheap becuase the box is tatty, and a couple of other projects that will leave me with spare F-86D wings anyway.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2014, 11:22:27 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.

Offline Weaver

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2014, 11:56:05 PM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.

True, but then the only FJ-3 kit I know of in 1/72nd is the Falcon vacform conversion.

Here's a thought: if it's going to be a Supermarine Sapphire Sabre, how about putting a Swift wing on it?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:55:42 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2014, 03:20:17 AM »
Cross posting some inspiration:



From Sabre Dingo
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2014, 09:21:57 PM »
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of £20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.


Airmodel in Germany do an Avon Sabre vacuform conversion for considerably cheaper than the High Planes one.  However, the High Planes model or conversion (they do a complete kit as well as just a fuselage), if purchased direct from Singapore I'm sure works out much cheaper than 20 quid, it is also injection moulded.

Also, the 30mm cannon nose is considerably different to a standard Sabre nose, while the fuselage should be slightly deeper.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 09:23:28 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline Weaver

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #149 on: November 23, 2014, 09:43:53 AM »
Cross posting some inspiration:



From Sabre Dingo


Just realised what's been bugging me about this profile. In the Sabre, the intake duct goes under the cockpit floor and then up to the centreline to meet the engine, so the back-seater in the TF-86 actually sat higher than the pilot, not lower. The side profile of the TF-86 on Airmodel's site that Rickshaw linked confirms this. Can't link it from their site but here's another profile that shows what I'm talking about:

« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 09:47:35 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith