Author Topic: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives  (Read 24411 times)

Offline M.A.D

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F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« on: February 12, 2012, 06:13:27 PM »
G’day gents

I've once again been looking through Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects (page 50 & 51) - the precursor to the F-100 Super Sabre!

I'm thinking of a backstory pertaining to a more conservative evolution of the F-86 Sabre design by North American Aviation, as opposed to them taking a more riskier and expensive jump directly to the F-100 Super Sabre.
As in the case of the Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau did with their improving of the combat tested and proven MiG-15 Fagot, which evolved into the improved MiG-17 Fresco, before they took the jump to the supersonic and more radical MiG-19 Farmer design!

So it is, that I'm hoping, that someone out there might have 3-view drawings or profiles of the proposed 'Advanced F-86 / Sabre 45' or if someone is willing to have a crack at creating some of these 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' profiles. 

P.S. I have to apologise, as I only have this picture from the book!!

M.A.D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 05:15:08 PM by M.A.D »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 06:14:26 AM »
MAD, have you tried contacting Tony Buttler ?

Offline M.A.D

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 07:42:33 PM »
Thanks kitnut617 for the heads up  ;)
Would love too!!
Can you PM a C/P for him please??

M.A.D

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 12:59:21 AM »
Hi, I asked Tony if it's alright to give out his details and this was his reply:

Hello Robert.
Hope all is well. Thanks for your message.
 
I had read this comment on the secretprojects forum. You are welcome to pass my details to your contact, but there are currently no drawings of these designs available.
 
I understand that the North American archive still exists but its huge size has (so far) prevented any chance of the public being able to view it. Consequently, for projects after about 1948/49 (which are not in the National archives) there is no supporting documentation to provide data (dimensions, weights, performance, etc) and of course 3-view drawings. I have tried lots of other potential NAA contacts (and still do) but with no luck as yet. The one chap who I think may have been able to help was not happy to send me copies of project drawings because he did not wish to break the very tight secrecy restrictions (even though this stuff is 60+ years old).
 
Sorry I cannot say anymore - I too would love to see drawings of these designs myself.
 
Very best wishes,
Tony.

Offline finsrin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 08:06:22 AM »
Post war thru 50s planes in general of all nations are favorites of mine.  This captures that era well.  Makes for more kit bashing thought.
Without thinking about it as such when building.  I feel Spider Venom has that 1950ish look/feel to it.
Looking forward to what you can come up with......  :)
Bill

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 02:28:35 PM »
I will have a read on the section of the book on the weekend - it might be possible to draw something up based upon the model photos and description.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline M.A.D

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 02:57:14 PM »
Thank you kitnut617 for your time and effort in forwarding my enquiry to Tony Buttler!
Please be so kind as to forward my thanks for his time and consideration regarding this topic!
Also please acknowledge to Tony, that I am a huge fan of his work, which has equated to some great and informative books!

Regards
M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 02:47:26 AM »
Hi folks,

Random thought for a subtle whiff:  What if Australia also provided some CAC Sabres to Singapore at the same time as they did so for Malaysia?

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline finsrin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 06:06:50 AM »
Set up F-86 rebuild line for anyone willing to pay for updates.  Center piece of rebuilds is as was done with Skyhawk includes F-404 with option to include afterburner.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:46:44 AM by finsrin »

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 06:24:41 PM »
The IDFAF ordered Canadair Sabre 6's. One got painted up but the order was stopped.

Similarly the Rhodesians tried to get South American F-86K's but they got blocked.

I did build a RRAF F-86E, ex RAF Sabre 4, and an IDF 6 a long time ago.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 10:28:08 PM »
One of my project (which I really should get and finish  :-\ ) is to build a prop driven F-86, an F-86D to be exact.  The idea came about after reading about the Rolls Royce Crecy two-stroke engine, one of the theoretical combustion engineers there had reworked the design into a 16 cylinder 'X' configuration of about 7 litres and putting out 2500 hp.  The engine would have had a Griffon two-stage supercharger attached to the front (which had about the same diameter as the engine block) and the exhaust
was channeled back into an exhaust turbine. The contraption looked very much like a jet turbine engine in appearance.  The chapter then went on to explain by juggling the numbers the engineer had come up with and making everything larger, they could have got a 24 cylinder 'X' configuration which kicked out about 8000 hp (in theory that is).

My idea was to go with this engine so I started looking around for an airframe that could handle 8000 hp.  The book on the Crecy (and Mustang) from Rolls Royce, explains that a pound of thrust is about 1 hp, so that narrowed the search to what airframe to look for.  Now the F-86D just happens to fall in this catagory, plus it has a nose that looks like a spinner and it didn't take much to come up with a design. The engine would be where the real engine would be and using a Rolls Royce designed drive-shaft (designed for their mid-engined FTB project), powering a prop on the front wouldn't be a problem I think.  Prop ground clearance would easily be accommodated by using the FJ-4 Fury u/c (there's at least 12" of clearance when I measure it with my scale rule).  I used a Wyvern prop and after cutting off the radome nose, I only had to sand the fuselage back about 1mm before the spinner and fuselage diameters matched.

Anyway, some pics of it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:32:47 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline upnorth

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 03:24:47 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 04:49:46 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?


Maybe as a different approach to the RF-86?

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 07:38:46 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?

F-86D with a Mirage IIIR recon nose. I don't know whether they are to scale, though.


"Snoopin' Sabre" is just a working title. I suppose since it derives from the Dog Sabre and is a version dedicated to looking for stuff, Bloodhound Sabre would also work.  ;)
If you take an F-86K, you can even have your recon bird armed with cannons.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 08:17:04 AM »
The "Ant-eater" ;D
All hail the God of Frustration!!!