Author Topic: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968  (Read 4331 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2019, 07:16:18 AM »
I'm going to be replacing the Colts on my RAN F-8E & RAM SLUF's with 30mm ADEN cannon ... we did it to the F-86F ;)
Mind, the SLUFs do use the M-61 Vulcan, not the 20mm Colts, so the interior space, etc., may not lend itself to changing over to the Adens. Not sure why you'd want to if you have the Vulcan in place. It's a lot better gun than the 20mm Colt.

Paul

The Vulcan is not as fast reacting, nor is it as accurate and finally, it isn't as hard hitting as the ADEN/DEFA guns.  The Vulcan has to be "spun up" before it can fire, whereas the revolver cannons are ready to fire as soon as they loaded and cocked.   I have to laugh at the fan-boy slavish praise of the GAU-8.  Yes, it's a hard hitting gun but not as hard hitting or as accurate as either the revolver cannons or the Oelikon all of which were trialed against it but rejected because of "not invented here".

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2019, 01:02:29 PM »
Actually, according to the Specialty Press book on the F-8, LTV offered the second wing pylons to the US Navy but it was not taken up.
Re-checked the book I cited, the LTV proposal with two pylons per wing was the V-458 and a three-view makes the back endpaper of the book.  'Twould be an interesting modeling subject.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2019, 01:30:40 AM »
The Vulcan has to be "spun up" before it can fire, whereas the revolver cannons are ready to fire as soon as they loaded and cocked.   

The gun takes about 0.3 seconds to wind up to the full rate of fire so hardly an eternity...
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2019, 07:15:28 AM »
The Vulcan has to be "spun up" before it can fire, whereas the revolver cannons are ready to fire as soon as they loaded and cocked.   

The gun takes about 0.3 seconds to wind up to the full rate of fire so hardly an eternity...

Can seem like a long time to a pilot in a dog fight...

Actually, this raises another question.  Was the F-104 ever armed with anything other than a Vulcan internally?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2019, 04:56:59 PM »
And the old ADEN / DEFA 30mm is pretty sad compared to more modern 30mm offering and even the 25mm NATO, which was meant to be offered in a rechambered ADEN on the Sea Harrier FRS 2 (F?A-2) and GR5/7/9.  The Tiger helicopter uses the old ADEN 30mm case and it is noticeable smaller than the 25mm used by the Army and Navy.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2019, 02:20:37 AM »
Was the F-104 ever armed with anything other than a Vulcan internally?


Interesting question.  None that I am aware of though I wouldn't be surprised if there was something at some point. 

The closest I can find is the Model L-242 for the USN.  This was not actually a F-104 though you can see the obvious family lines:





This had 4× 20 mm Colt Mk 12 cannons similar to the Vought Crusader.

More info
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2019, 02:57:59 AM »
Interesting ffind GTX re the Model L-242 and 4× 20 mm Colt Mk 12 cannons!😯

M.A.D

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2019, 06:32:27 AM »
A naval Starfighter derivative with its totally not ludicrous take-off and landing speed, negligible operating radius, and (when the proposal was made) a downward-firing ejection seat? Yeah, I'm totally surprised why the Navy didn't pick that one.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2019, 01:25:48 AM »
A naval Starfighter derivative with its totally not ludicrous take-off and landing speed, negligible operating radius, and (when the proposal was made) a downward-firing ejection seat? Yeah, I'm totally surprised why the Navy didn't pick that one.

From the Retromechanix article I linked to:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2019, 01:36:36 AM »
BTW, more different cannon options:

  • T-171 - became M61 Vulcan
  • T-182 - twin 30mm cannon (see here)
  • Mk,12 - 20mm x 4



One could easily see a F-104G being fitted with comparable 30mm ADENs or DEFAs.
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2019, 11:43:29 PM »
A naval Starfighter derivative with its totally not ludicrous take-off and landing speed
From the Retromechanix article I linked to:
I stand corrected (somehow I missed that figure altogether when reading the article...  :-[ ). Apparently the flight envelope could be radically changed by changes in aerodynamics while still keeping the same basic form. Should have noticed from the decrease in top speed that something major was going on...

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2019, 05:18:41 AM »
Re-checked the book I cited, the LTV proposal with two pylons per wing was the V-458 and a three-view makes the back endpaper of the book. 

Which book is that?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2019, 11:14:24 PM »
Re-checked the book I cited, the LTV proposal with two pylons per wing was the V-458 and a three-view makes the back endpaper of the book. 

Which book is that?
Specialty Press book on the F-8; a very good read.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Best Air Superiority Fighter, 1956-1968
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2019, 01:55:27 AM »
Yep, got it already - was just checking in case it was another.
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