Author Topic: M.A.D's 'Alternative Australian Defence Force Order of Battle' Questions please  (Read 17693 times)

Offline tankmodeler

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Yes, absolutely, but even the Sea Kings had a couple operators as the warning part. Proper control would require a much bigger aircraft, radar and crew. But to run the radar plots it's going to need at least two operators I'd say.

If it's simply an airborne radar with all processing going on at the carrier, it would be terribly susceptible to jamming and to being found by enemy EW assets.

The thing is that there is room in the airframe for two operators plus the radar and power system. The Alize already has an operator plus a radar plus a bomb bay. Why not use the space there already?

Paul

Offline Jonesthetank

  • Almost as dumb as I look
The pictures are taken from this book


Any Francophones care to give us a translation?


Here are the pictures (now I've worked out how to post them!). Love the twin engine variant too


I agree with GTX, the variant is an AEW one, like the Skyraider AD-4W or the Gannet AEW, rather than a "proper" AWACS job. 

Offline elmayerle

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I think you will find that it would be an Airborne Early Warning (AEW) platform as opposed to a Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).  That is, there would not necessarily be a "Control" element (or maybe a limited one) which often necessitates the extra crew.  Much the same as the Sea King AEW birds.
More like a really large band data link to shipborne CIC, much as many helicopter AEW systems do now (and as the proposed Sea Harrier "Sidekick" system would have had).

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
I think you will find that it would be an Airborne Early Warning (AEW) platform as opposed to a Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).  That is, there would not necessarily be a "Control" element (or maybe a limited one) which often necessitates the extra crew.  Much the same as the Sea King AEW birds.
More like a really large band data link to shipborne CIC, much as many helicopter AEW systems do now (and as the proposed Sea Harrier "Sidekick" system would have had).

My understanding is that the earlier AEW naval aircraft all featured a datalink to the carrier for the processing of the radar information for use in controlling aircraft.  The AEW aircraft usually carried at least one or two operators simply to detect enemy aircraft on the radar.   The Skyraider and Gannet definitely had a datalink system.

Offline GTX_Admin

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I really like that twin engined variant. :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
I really like that twin engined variant. :smiley:

Moi aussi! And twin turboprop T58s, I notice  :smiley:
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new land ...

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Sorry gents, I've been out of action for a while :(

Enjoying the conversation and input re the Alize AEW  :P

Jonesthetank, love the profiles you've been so kind in doing mate 👍👌
Excited about the RAN profiles!!
Will speak to you very soon re some minimal mods to the the Alize AEW profile if I could impose? ;)

P.S. Jonesthetank has done some other very interesting profiles in support of my Alternative ADF ORBAT, which I'm very anxious to share  :P

M.A.D



Offline elmayerle

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Looking at the ratings on the T58 engines of the twin-engine version, I could see them being replaced by Astazous without difficulty.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Any Francophones care to give us a translation?


Désolé, je ne suis pas francophone mais ...

"In 1957, the Marine Nationale envisioned the adaptation of the Alizé to a remote detection of enemy ships and aircraft mission. Financing difficulties put this project on hold but it received a renewed 'impetus' in 1959.

Breguet offered 2 possible variants, both equipped with the American equipment recommended by Aéronavale (the APS 20 radar and AN/ASA 13 navigation set [Navigational Group Computer]):

 - One Alizé AEW variant was to have a ventral radome, clearly inspired by the 'Skyraiders' of the US Navy. This solution would have led to significant changes to the landing gear, wing-folding (now 'out-sized' with the taller landing gear) and catapult hardware;

- Another Alizé AEW variant was to have a dorsal radome, which avoided the modifications above, but entailed the necessity of replacing the empennage with a set of twin tails to clear the radome's wake. We do not know the exact design.

A contemporary plan shows the assembly on a 'stack', as shown on the sketch page 228. But we might have had to replace it with a set of finer supports, in order to create a smaller radome wake.

It should be noted that the two solutions would also have led to differences in tactical use, with the second [variant] allowing lower flying on aircraft-detection missions. [This variant] seems to have been the preference of the design office, but it did not progress beyond a sketch and estimates of approximate weight. There was no scale model of this layout. At the time, it was possible to consider a conversion for the development of this variant, either of one the prototype Br 965s or of a 'pre-series' Br 1050, the Navy being unwilling to sacrifice any of its series [Alizé] aircraft.

This project must have been definitively abandoned in the early 'sixties as a result of budget restrictions. However, Aéronavale continued to be interested in the problem since an AEW variant of the Dassault [MD 410] 'Spirale' was proposed in 1962. Subsequently,  Breguet was asked to study specialized two-engined aircraft, which would have given rise to Br 123 projects, which will be discussed in another chapter.

Little is known about the characteristics of the Br 1050 AEW. The maximum weight announced, 8.2 tons, was a limit presumably imposed by the Marine. This weight corresponded to a two-seat aircraft, carrying 2800 liters of fuel, regardless of the location chosen for the radome, high or low."

BTW: The Br 695 mentioned was the second prototype Br.960 Vultur modified into the Épaulard as an ASW demonstrator for the Br 1050 Alizé.

The unbuilt Br 123 was part of Marine's DAFNE programme to replace the Alizé (along with Sud's SA-X-137). There were a bunch of variations- twin-boomed Br 123A (with radome between booms) or single-fuselage Br 123B (with a dorsal roto-dome). Both versions could be powered by two turboprops (Darts or GE T64s) or two turbofans (Rolls-Royce, GE, or Lycoming).

The other caption reads something like this ...

"The Alizé twin-turbine project:

In late 1956 Breguet proposed, probably on its own initiative, a twin-turbine variant of the Alizé.

The wing of this project would have differed very little from that of the single engine Br 1050. But the Dart turboprop engine at the front of the fuselage, was replaced with a nose cap. Two General-Electric T-58 of 1050 hp each, were placed at the front of each wing nacelle.

The American turboprops offered the advantage of very small dimensions and, mounted flat in the nacelles, still allow sonobuoys to be carried.

The passive radar detection antennae would have been transferred to the aircraft's new nose. Crew accommodation and search radar installation would not modified in any way.

Aircraft characteristics and performance were expected to be slightly different from those of the standard Br 1050. However, they were never published. The main advantages of the twin-engine formula would have been, undeniably, increase safety on take-off and decreased operational vulnerability.

The reliability of the Dart was such that its replacement by two separate turbines seemed to be a useless luxury. This [twin-engined] version was studied primarily for its export potential."

Thanks for posting these scans  :smiley:
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new land ...

Offline M.A.D

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  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Thanks for the translation apophenia😯👍

Quote
It should be noted that the two solutions would also have led to differences in tactical use, with the second [variant] allowing lower flying on aircraft-detection missions. [This variant] seems to have been the preference of the design office

Very interesting!!


M.A.D