Author Topic: Panther tank and Jagdpanther  (Read 32433 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« on: January 30, 2012, 03:59:12 AM »
Wikipedia - Panther Tank


(Click on html or image to view Wikipedia article.  Image source: Bundesarchiv via Wikipedia)

Why is it that the Panther was not developed into a fire support vehicle?  Aside from the economic reasons for using all of those earlier hulls for this purpose, why not a fire support tank based on the Panther hull?   

With this terminology I am referring to something like the United States M4 Sherman that was armed with a 105mm howitzer.  What if the Panther development had included plans for a fire support tank armed with a 10.5 cm howitzer and the muzzle brake that was used on the Wespe 10.5 cm leFH18.  Obviously this type of fire support tank would need a new mantlet that would allow for a higher elevation for indirect fire.  Ammunition capacity on the vehicle would be about the same as the 75mm gun tank with the benefit of an armored turret for the crew. 

Mount the turret from the 10.5cm Heuschrecke 10 on the Panther hull. 

Another option would be to use the cannon parts from the 10.5 cm K (gp.Sfl.) Dicker Max with the Panther turret.


(Click on html or image to view article at Wikipedia.  Image source: Wikipedia

Something to think about for those not wanting to do a standard Panther or one of the variations on that theme. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 01:28:04 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 05:49:01 PM »
Some I did earlier.

Wheeled Panther:



Panthers with different wheel arrangement + a few other features...:




Mobile SAM:



Panther APC:

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 01:47:20 AM »
I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.

Back in the days when affordable 1/72nd kits of modern armour were thin on the ground, the Panther/Jagdpanther provided one of the few "modern-looking" basis for sci-fi wargaming armour. Me and my mate built a whole range of grav tanks from Panthers and T-34s for Traveller wargames:



This one's a bit wasteful because it uses two upper hulls. Unfortunately the more sensible ones are long gone now.
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 02:39:20 AM »
I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.

Yes, this was primarily why.  In a defensive situation, AT firepower is more important than HE.  The Germans were also (under Hitler's insistence) averse to any proposal that removed a potential gun tank from the production line.  They should have built probably 3 times as many Bergepanthers as they did, but it was that obsessive short-sightedness that drove it.

I've mentioned it a few dozen times, I think, but I've read an account of Panthers at the Battle of the Bulge firing at a stone house and doing precious little.  The HE content of its high-velocity 75mm KwK 42 was pathetic, just like the 17pdr (a VERY similar gun).

Thanks,

Logan

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
If you wanted a whiffy fire-support vehicle on a Panther chassis, how about putting the 150mm L12 gun from the Brummbar into the front of a Jagdpanther? The Brummbar's weakness was always that it was too heavy for it's Pzkpfw.IV chassis, so this would give you the same firepower with the Panther's excellent mobility. Pretty easy model too....

For a Jagdpanther-based APC, you could usefully knock a couple of feet off the height of the fighting compartment. The BTR-50, which is a perfectly useable APC of similar, rear-engined configuration, is some 700mm lower than a Jagdpather.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:00:47 AM by Weaver »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 07:32:43 PM »
The was a proposed fire support Panther variant with a 150mm gun called the Sturmpanther IIRC.

http://fingolfen.tripod.com/panther/sturmpanther.html

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 01:50:19 AM »
While not a visible improvement, the most dramatic would be a Panther that was mechanically reliable
and easily maintainable.
 ;D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 09:31:39 AM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 09:43:12 AM »
While not a visible improvement, the most dramatic would be a Panther that was mechanically reliable
and easily maintainable.
 ;D

I agree, Jon.  I listened to the late Jacques Littlefield's comments on the Panther's engineering and it was about as negative as you could get.  He was very unimpressed and pitied the men who had to work on it.  In his words, it wasn't overengineered, it was badly engineered.  In his opinion, the only truly positive aspects of the design were its decent gun and the fact that the turret was set far enough back that ricochets off the glacis wouldn't impact it.  That was it.  Everything else that seemed positive (suspension, armor, etc) had so many negative side effects that it had an overall detrimental effect on the vehicle's performance.

2/3 of Panthers lost in the Battle of the Bulge were due to mechanical failure, if memory serves.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Maverick

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 11:03:28 AM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.

Evan, there were a few different Flakpanther designs with twinned 37mm or 50mm or a quad 20mm weapon array.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.


Yes there was...



...my thoughts exactly.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 03:38:49 AM »
I had a DML/Dragon Beobachtungspanzer (based on the Panther G) and the DML/Dragon 10.5cm K.Pz.Sfl.IVa 'Dicker Max' (based on the PzKw IV) in my hands yesterday and was seriously considering going over to the dark side and modeling something WW2 and German based on the idea I shared in the origional post of a Panther armed with a 105mm gun/howitzer. 

It was a tough struggle but I fought the urge and put the kits back on the shelf.  I must say that it was very tempting though with the Dicker Max kit having a choice of two muzzle brakes and the option of plastic or metal gun tube. 
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM »
Get idea from these pictures.  Tank mounting twin A-10 30mm cannons.  On refurbished M-48 or M-60 hull.  Modern fire control system and working side by side with Abrams tanks.  That teaming would ruin someone's day.
Bill

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 09:53:43 AM »
Get idea from these pictures.  Tank mounting twin A-10 30mm cannons.  On refurbished M-48 or M-60 hull.  Modern fire control system and working side by side with Abrams tanks.  That teaming would ruin someone's day.
Bill

Err Bill...was this meant to be posted elsewhere?  Maybe a dedicated SPAAG Thread?
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 10:19:47 AM »
Started new thread for 30mm.
Am liking wheeled Panther.  Imagine it on a sunny day military parade with polished chrome wheels used for parades only.  Much easier to change than mounting chrome wheels which ride on Panther's tracks.
Bill

Online dy031101

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 10:55:33 AM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:58:23 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 03:45:30 PM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 08:29:21 PM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:

Prize or not its got me thinking...
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Online dy031101

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 07:09:42 AM »
Prize or not its got me thinking...


 ;)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:


But I'm just an otaku  :P



And her girlfriend might kill me over the slightest suggestion of her as a prize  ;D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:39:23 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 01:32:01 PM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 11:47:34 PM »
A random idea:  a Jagdpanther but with the 128mm gun from the JagdTiger
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2012, 07:45:31 AM »
I'd be surprised if there wasn't a project to do just that in the E-series.

Regards,

John
Regards,

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 08:41:34 AM »
I think New Connection did a 1/35 conversion set for a Panther that sported a 128mm gun in a fixed superstructure sloped much like the Jagpdpanther's, but set at the back of the vehicle, much like the Panzerjäger Elefant.
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Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 05:14:17 AM »
I think New Connection did a 1/35 conversion set for a Panther that sported a 128mm gun in a fixed superstructure sloped much like the Jagpdpanther's, but set at the back of the vehicle, much like the Panzerjäger Elefant.

They did.

I plan on building two Panther Ausf F's in 1/48. One will have the long 75,the other will have a 105 howitzer,a sturmpanther.
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »
How about a ATGM armed Jagdpanther with X-7 Rotkäppchen missiles instead of the main gun?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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