Author Topic: Panther tank and Jagdpanther  (Read 32349 times)

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2012, 03:51:28 PM »
I suspect the 88 would be a more effective weapon in reality.  The technology was very much in its infancy and I can't imagine many missiles being carried onboard.  That said, it'd still look quite interesting.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2013, 03:54:10 AM »
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/98667-panther-iii-a-as-tier-x-medium/page__st__40

Is this absolutely fictious or based in some real studies?

Anyway I love it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 02:01:36 PM »
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/98667-panther-iii-a-as-tier-x-medium/page__st__40

Is this absolutely fictious or based in some real studies?

Anyway I love it.


Fictitious.  The "real" E-75 looked much more like this:



As you can see, its taller and the turret more clearly derived from the Tiger II than the WoT's creation.  The WoT looks more like it's turret comes from an M-47 and is much lower.  Trumpeter offers a 1/35 model of it (the picture comes from the box-top).  Cromwell offers one in 1/72:


Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 11:52:04 AM »
Was Schmallturm better than the stock one? why?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 12:29:56 PM »
Smaller target and more heavily armoured with a better designed mantlet than the original design.  It was also easier to manufacture and was intended to be equipped with a stereoscopic range finder which would have improved accuracy.  I think though, it would have been a harder turret to fight from, more cramped and hard to upgrade.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2013, 01:41:37 PM »
German turrets really seemed to be going that way there at the end, didn't they?  The Germans must've been engineering tankers without shoulders while the Soviets were working on tankers without heads.





Cheers,

Logan

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2013, 08:49:13 AM »
German turrets really seemed to be going that way there at the end, didn't they?  The Germans must've been engineering tankers without shoulders while the Soviets were working on tankers without heads.





Cheers,

Logan


Children and old men don't take up as much space as strapping six feet Aryans...

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2013, 09:06:37 AM »
They need room for their jet packs and magic wands too don't forget  ;)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 01:14:52 PM »
That tank may look heavier than it is.
Whole appearance says weight-weight-weight.

Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 11:11:04 AM »
Question about rearming a Panther.  Would a 17 pounder fit in the turret or would it just be better to go with a French CN 75-50 since it was based on the original gun?  Looking at a one off built in the late 50s or early 60s in sub-Saharan Africa for fighting Soviet backed insurgents in a mercenary outfit.

Thank you for any help.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »
Are you after improved firepower or simply ease of supportability?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 12:39:10 PM »
Question about rearming a Panther.  Would a 17 pounder fit in the turret or would it just be better to go with a French CN 75-50 since it was based on the original gun?  Looking at a one off built in the late 50s or early 60s in sub-Saharan Africa for fighting Soviet backed insurgents in a mercenary outfit.

Thank you for any help.

Go with impoved ammunition.  The gun was quite adequate - and that was why the French stuck with it for a long time after the war.  Add APDS and it would have a new lease of life beyond the mid-1950s.

As Greg has suggested, you'd need improve maintainability.   The Panther was a pain in the bum to maintain and quite unreliable by all accounts.  More Panthers and Tigers were lost because of mechanical unreliability than due to enemy action in WWII.   Only the Panzer IV was really mature and reliable enough to see any major use post-war.  Panthers only served briefly with the French post-war and then quickly faded once more reliable US M-46/47 became available.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 04:06:48 PM »
Agreed on the 75mm L70, the Israelis thought so too with their M50 Super Shermans.

I watched a doco on youtube last night that sort of ties into this, on German tanks-destroyers and assault guns last night.  They mentioned the reliability and maintainability issues with the Jagt-Panther.  It actually appears the L43 and L48 75mm guns in the STUGs did just fine against the T-34 and Sherman with the 128mm and even the 88mm L71 being overkill.

(1/5)TANKS! Assault Guns and Tank Hunters Sturmgeschütz


Very interesting and informative, some minor errors and inaccuracies I picked but overall not bad and got me thinking (yes I know multidirectional, often incoherent tangents again). 

The really interesting thread was the majority of purpose designed and adapted tank-destroyers were failures while the simpler, more reliable, Stugs (III & IV), Hetzers and, to a lesser extent due to small numbers Jadtpanzer IV were successful.  Basically tactics and employment of the 43 and 48 calibre 75mm gunned Stugs made them infinitely more successful than the other TDs.  The guns were perfectly adequate, the tactics made the difference.  The monster tanks and tank-destroyers look awesome and I love them to bits, but it appears that, what were in effect, low profile, highly mobile, self propelled, armoured field and anti-tank guns, used in close conjunction with infantry were infinitely more effective than the much fancier, more expensive stuff.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 04:09:10 PM by Volkodav »

Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 08:52:57 PM »
Are you after improved firepower or simply ease of supportability?

Ease of support was my top priority in this case.  An improvement in firepower is always welcome of course.  I am just not sure if a Panther turret would be able to have a 90mm M3 gun put in it.  Though there are claims that a Schmalturm from the F and E-50 would have been able to mount a 88mm L/71.  I only say this since one of the suppliers is the U.S. in the form of M46 and M47 tanks. 

Was the French 75 still a 70 caliber barrel or was it shorter?  I thought I read somewhere that it was a shorter barrel as well as using different rounds.  I need to do some more research on this.

On a tangent.  I have looked and not found much information on what happened to the Firefly tanks post Korea.

Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 10:35:41 AM »
So I did some more research on the web tonight.  The CN 75-50 had a caliber of 61.5 from what I have found.  It also used different rounds than the L/70 which makes sense considering it was mounted in a tank weighing a third of a Panther with an auto-loader to boot.  In short it should fit in a Panther turret and have people scratching their heads while figuring out what is different. 

What I find of interest is that the Panther had a smaller turret ring than the Sherman by 3".  At least in the sources that I have found. 

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2014, 04:00:42 AM »
Interesting photo on the cover of the latest Panzerwrecks book:



Could almost be "the day women and children put an end to the fighting" ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2014, 05:40:02 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2014, 05:43:42 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D



Beats me... ;)

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2014, 05:54:28 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D


Beats me... ;)

And here was I thinking that only the Japanese would think of using Minimi as an AFV weapon......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2014, 11:36:40 AM »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2014, 12:03:38 PM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D

Shouldn't that be "What is it with men, women and tanks?"

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2014, 06:59:53 PM »
What I meant is, when women get to pose on tanks, one of them always seem to manage to end up sitting astride the barrel....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2014, 07:21:07 PM »
This is, I think, what we are all skirting around - the obvious phallic impact of the massive great gun projecting from the front of a tank. :o

And, unless they're gay, there aren't many women who can resist the temptation of a massive, rigid phallic symbol. ;D
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 07:23:01 PM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
This is, I think, what we are all skirting around - the obvious phallic impact of the massive great gun projecting from the front of a tank. :o

And, unless they're gay, there aren't many women who can resist the temptation of a massive, rigid phallic symbol. ;D


The owner of the Abbot SPG who got booked to paint the vehicle pink and take it on the London Gay and Lesbian Pride parade a few years ago would offer evidence to the contrary: fairly queing up for a sit on the barrel they were.... ;D

(Incidentally, his biggest problem was how to persuade his all-very-straight-male crew to volunteer for that one. The solution was simple: he lied to them. He told them they were painting the tank pink for a Revlon nail polish commercial, so they all volunteered in the belief that they were going to meet some supermodels.... ;D)

http://www.tanks-alot.co.uk/amnesty_international.htm
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 08:01:52 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2014, 03:15:23 AM »
Ok, getting back to the Panther Tank….

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.