Author Topic: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 -- plus an XP-86  (Read 26201 times)

Offline kitnut617

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North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 -- plus an XP-86
« on: October 19, 2014, 07:56:38 AM »
I've had on my mind for a few weeks a new project, got the idea from working on some F-82's and thought this could have been a natural progression of the Twin Mustang.

I've cobbled this together quickly so what was in my head had a physical bearing.  It will be a nightfighter using the huge pod from the F-82, but it struck me that eighteen forward firing .5's could be quite devastating ---  :o

My project won't have any center wing guns though, and only four per fuselage --
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 10:31:21 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 08:07:13 AM »
Wicked!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 09:20:23 AM »
You'll probably need a center pod as an auxiliary fuel tank.  Those early jet engines were thirsty beasts and not particularly efficient.

Offline FAAMAN

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 09:37:20 AM »
Very cool indeed 8) !! Imagine bringing it aboard a pitching carrier :D
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 09:38:29 PM »
Thanks guys

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 09:59:08 PM »
You'll probably need a center pod as an auxiliary fuel tank.  Those early jet engines were thirsty beasts and not particularly efficient.

I was thinking about what we had discussed on another thread Evan, about a USN F-82 and where the arrester hook would have to be located, we came up with an extended pod sticking out behind the trailing edge of the center wing section.

I'm thinking along the same lines here, using a couple of the big radar pods I have spare.  What I'll do is shorten what is sticking out the front (no prop to interfere) and have it protruding about 1/2" (12mm) beyond the trailing edge. The hook would extend out from there but then be retractable into the pod end.

Fuel wise, as I'm not having guns in the wing center section, all available space in the wing will be for fuel tanks, plus I'll have four of the F-82 300 Gal tanks under the outer wings.  Another thing that cancels the use of the wing guns is that the wheel bays will be located right where the ammo storage bins are.  I thought about using the wing tip tanks but the aircraft is already a stubby little thing, it just doesn't look right with the tanks on the wing tips.  I did play with the idea of stretching the fuselage but in the end, decided not to. 

Matching the tail-planes between a F-82 and just one FJ-1, I calculated that there's not a lot of difference in area (in 1/72 scale and mm's, the FJ-I had 1050 sq' mm, whereas the F-82 tail-plane works out to 1100 sq' mm), so to me there's not enough tail-plane for a Twin Fury (the F-82 got away with it because the rear fuselage is extended 67"[RW]).  I'll probably add half of each FJ-1 tail-plane to the outer side of each fuselage.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 04:04:43 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 03:38:09 AM »
That's a cool looking stubby!

ALvis 3.1

Offline Tophe

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 11:40:17 PM »
Wonderful! I clap my hands so much, it hurts... ;) :-*

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 01:25:26 AM »
Cheers guys !

Offline elmayerle

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 10:20:55 AM »
Matching the tail-planes between a F-82 and just one FJ-1, I calculated that there's not a lot of difference in area (in 1/72 scale and mm's, the FJ-I had 1050 sq' mm, whereas the F-82 tail-plane works out to 1100 sq' mm), so to me there's not enough tail-plane for a Twin Fury (the F-82 got away with it because the rear fuselage is extended 67"[RW]).  I'll probably add half of each FJ-1 tail-plane to the outer side of each fuselage.
That sounds reasonable.  If you need a touch more length, look at fitting the tail surfaces to a pair of F-86 aft fuselages (I'd suggest the old Matchbox kit if you can find a couple).  I'm crossing a Merlin FJ-1 with a Matchbox F-86A to produce a straight-winged XP-86.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 09:11:47 PM »
Matching the tail-planes between a F-82 and just one FJ-1, I calculated that there's not a lot of difference in area (in 1/72 scale and mm's, the FJ-I had 1050 sq' mm, whereas the F-82 tail-plane works out to 1100 sq' mm), so to me there's not enough tail-plane for a Twin Fury (the F-82 got away with it because the rear fuselage is extended 67"[RW]).  I'll probably add half of each FJ-1 tail-plane to the outer side of each fuselage.
That sounds reasonable.  If you need a touch more length, look at fitting the tail surfaces to a pair of F-86 aft fuselages (I'd suggest the old Matchbox kit if you can find a couple).  I'm crossing a Merlin FJ-1 with a Matchbox F-86A to produce a straight-winged XP-86.

I've got a XP-86 (straight wing) project going to Evan, using the said Matchbox F-86A and the left-over parts from the second Siga Fury kit.  I need to find another manufacturers kit of an F-86A though because the fuselage around the tail-pipe of the Matchbox kit is not very round (but I think the Matchbox kit is the only game in town).  I'll use a fin & rudder from an F-82 as it is very close to the FJ-1 fin/rudder for size.

Evan, if you can get hold of Squadron/Signal's Walk Around No.21 - F-86 Sabre, there's a photo of the straight wing XP-86 plus a side profile on the very first page.  The caption for the photo says it's the only known photo of the first XP-86.  But I'm sure I've seen another --- just got to find where

« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 09:22:39 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline elmayerle

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 01:38:39 AM »
Google "XP-86".  There's an early jets website out there that has a staight-wing mockup picture from roughly the aft 3/4's view.  I'll have to get that walk-around.

if necessary, I've got three Fujimi F-86F kits that are giving up everything but their fuselages for Avon-Sabre conversions, so I've got extra fuselages if I need them.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 02:35:39 AM »
There's an early jets website out there that has a staight-wing mockup picture from roughly the aft 3/4's view. 

In google images, there's a pic which is what appears in the Walk Around book which must be the same as what you've seen (but I couldn't find that web site you were in)but see below, is this what you've found

The other photo I seem to remember wasn't of the XP-86 per say, it was of some other North American aircraft (possibly a P-51 of some mark) and the caption said something like 'notice the XP-86 behind'.  From what I remember of the photo, the XP-86 was assembled too.

What's interesting about the photo below is that the wing is 'all-in-one', like a P-51s.  However, I've found photos of a FJ-1 which was disassembled and it reveals that the wing was built as two separate wings and bolted to the sides of the fuselage (British style)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 02:57:34 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 02:41:50 AM »
What a killer idea!

I'd go with max guns, but sometimes I go a little over-board.

Watching with great interest,
Brian da Basher

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 02:42:21 AM »
I've also found this 3-View

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 02:50:12 AM »
I've also found this photo of what might be the XFJ-1, it's lacking the wing root leading edge extensions and the modified flaps the production FJ-1 got. On my Twin Fury/P-86B (by the way, there was a real F-86B proposal but wasn't built) I've deleted these extensions but kept the modified flaps and I've also moved the wing forward -- my thinking here is that the radar equipment stowed in the pod, moves the cg forward.  Just my reasoning to make some space between the wing and the tail-planes  ;)

The wing without the extensions and modified flaps match the F-51H wing almost exactly, which happens to be a bit smaller than the F-82 wing. But by leaving the modified flaps on, the length of the chord at the wing root is almost the same as the F-82 center section chord.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 02:55:37 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 02:56:16 AM »
What a killer idea!

I'd go with max guns, but sometimes I go a little over-board.

Watching with great interest,
Brian da Basher

Cheers BdB --

Offline elmayerle

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 10:05:43 AM »
There's an early jets website out there that has a staight-wing mockup picture from roughly the aft 3/4's view. 

In google images, there's a pic which is what appears in the Walk Around book which must be the same as what you've seen (but I couldn't find that web site you were in)but see below, is this what you've found

The other photo I seem to remember wasn't of the XP-86 per say, it was of some other North American aircraft (possibly a P-51 of some mark) and the caption said something like 'notice the XP-86 behind'.  From what I remember of the photo, the XP-86 was assembled too.

What's interesting about the photo below is that the wing is 'all-in-one', like a P-51s.  However, I've found photos of a FJ-1 which was disassembled and it reveals that the wing was built as two separate wings and bolted to the sides of the fuselage (British style)
Yep, that's the photo I was referring to.  Useful for doing a XP-86(without letter) as I intend (actually, I've got the bits and pieces for a couple of them).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2014, 10:17:33 PM »
Well, I've cobbled together what I would call an XP-86, that takes care of a number of spare parts from the second FJ-1 kit

Offline elmayerle

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2014, 10:18:30 PM »
That most certainly looks the part.  I hope mine turn out as well.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 10:22:27 PM »
I took delivery of some very nicely vacuformed 1/72 FJ-1 canopies yesterday, from Tasman through Jay's Models.  These are suitable for the Pegasus, Merlin and Rareplane kits

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 10:28:05 PM »
That most certainly looks the part.  I hope mine turn out as well.

Thanks Evan, I'll file off the leading edge extensions and straighten out the trailing edge of the wing before I really go to town on it.  I'm wondering about the main gear bays though, on the FJ-1 the bays are completely in the wing, whereas on a F-86 the area where the wheel retracts into is in the fuselage. I was reading that the proposed F-86B was to get bigger main wheels and brakes so the fuselage would have been widened 7", so my thinking for the XP-86 is the wheel bays would be like an F-86.  So I'll carefully cut the wheel bays out of the lower wing half and move them inwards, replacing the F-86 wheel bays in the kits fuselage.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2014, 10:50:42 PM »
Well, I've cobbled together what I would call an XP-86, that takes care of a number of spare parts from the second FJ-1 kit

That looks absolutely cracker-jack! I can't help imagining it in RCN maple-leafs...

Brian da Basher

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 --
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2014, 11:49:16 PM »
Well, I've cobbled together what I would call an XP-86, that takes care of a number of spare parts from the second FJ-1 kit

That looks absolutely cracker-jack! I can't help imagining it in RCN maple-leafs...

Brian da Basher

 :) BdB

I was actually thinking an exchange with the RAF, and tested by them alongside a P-80, a Supermarine Jet Spiteful, Hawker Hawk and a Gloster Ace ----

Offline kitnut617

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Re: North American P-86B, or it could be a F2J-1 -- plus an XP-86
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 07:29:38 AM »
I've been studying this XP-86 version and it began to bug me as looking like something else I've seen.  Then it came to me, if you ignore where the air intake is and the size of the cockpit, it's got a bit of a BAC Strikemaster look to it.  Doing some googling and I find the two aircraft are very similar in size and shape, which gives me a couple of other ideas, one would be the XP-86 which I'm saying was exchanged with the RAF (RAE), got used as a test mule for the Jet Provost/Strikemaster equipment, or I'll go with a single seat Strikemaster --- using an F-86 forward fuselage but with a solid nose.  I've got a Jet Provost in the stash, just need to do some measuring to see if it's feasible ---