Author Topic: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration  (Read 1075 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2019, 04:38:22 AM »
One other thing an earlier US entry doesn't mean that Japan would have joined in,
they weren't ready in 1939-40 and they knew it.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2019, 10:38:11 AM »
Another point: The GB doesn't state WHEN the early entry is. Most people seem to be assuming 1 Sep 1939, or shortly thereafter, but it could be any time prior to 7 December 1941.

So, what if the US didn't enter the war until mid-1940, or even mid-1941? Many of the weapons used to win the war were under development in that era but hadn't had all the rough edges knocked of, yet. Entry into the war may have seen some expansion of manufacturing of older tech to boost initial numbers & for training purposes, military forces don't expand 3500% overnight, but, as in the RW, much would have been dedicated to developing & producing new equipment.

Britain's biggest issue post-Dunkerque (apart from the fact that most of the men it lost in France were professional soldiers, the ones needed to train new recruits) was the massive loss of materiel which needed to be replaced post-haste. This was why the British couldn't afford to change over to new equipment. Until then many of its factories had been tooling up to produce new & better weapons & equipment but had to delay that process to replace the stuff lost in France.

In what scenario could that have happened to the US military?

As I see it, an early US entry into WW2 means you'd see more older stuff involved in initial actions but be quickly replaced by newer, if somewhat different, equipment within the first 12 months, which would equip the newly trained armed forces. Also, with the US industrial base directly supporting it, I think you'd see the British introducing new & better weapons earlier. For example, if the US supplied the British with 37mm guns to replace the 2-pounders lost in France without having to even try to appear neutral, British gun manufacturers could have focused on introducing the 6-pounder earlier & developing tanks to use it.

At sea the Italians & Japanese had a decent number of new battleships but the biggest threat was still land-based air-power & the ol' battlewagon wasn't designed to cope with that. Aircraft carriers & AA cruisers were, so I think that would have been the biggest focus for naval development & production. The big boys would still have been built as the big-arsed floating artillery they became it the RW.


However, that is all moot because the GB is about the early entry of the US into WW2 & what equipment it would have started with, which is where I think our discussions should be focusing.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2019, 10:39:50 AM »
One other thing an earlier US entry doesn't mean that Japan would have joined in,
they weren't ready in 1939-40 and they knew it.



Oops.

 :-[

Brian da Basher

Offline Volkodav

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2019, 11:01:35 AM »
I am not saying all development stops, I am not saying all innovation stops, if anything innovation increases and ideas that were previously seen as too radical or risky do get looked at and sometimes get up.  What I am saying, and it has been seen over and over again, entering a war has a very different effect to preparing for a war, or watching and learning from someone else's war.

When the choice is between producing extra M1903s or not deploying units because you don't have enough Garands you produce extra M1903s, when the choice is between finalising the design and building the Iowas, which likely will not be ready in time, or ordering additional South Dakotas, you build the existing design.  When the choice is between producing P-39s and P-40s, or designing, developing, testing and then producing P-51s you go for the in production type.

When your hull is holed you don't stand there deciding which shipyard to go to or worry about whether you weld a patch over the hole or pull the ship out of the water to remove and replace the damaged plating, you hammer wooden chock in the hole and seal it as best you can until the ship is safe, then you worry about the wheres and hows of fixing it.

Its a very simple concept, one that has been demonstrated over and over again, when wars start you use what you have and only produce what you can usefully get to the front in your time of need.  As wars drag on and lessons are learned existing systems are evolved and new ones are introduced, but they are very different to those that would have been developed had you not been at war. 

There is massive investment in production, there is massive investment in R&D, but the priorities are set by the strategic situation.  Battleships and carriers are great and needed but when the enemy.s submarines are devastating your merchant fleet you need to invest escorts.  Bombers are great but when you are being bombed you need fighters.  Amphibious assault vehicles are great but when you are fighting in the desert you need land vehicles.  R&D is necessary but when an ally gives you tech and design data for something better than you have (but maybe not as good as what you are developing) you produce that.

Because the US had an extra couple of years to prepare and was physically removed from the industrial disruption of being bombed and starved of raw materials, manpower etc, they were able to design and develop many (or even most) of the war winning systems used from 43 onwards.  Had they joined tha war earlier they would have been in a situation more similar to the UK than not, and the effects would have been similar.  With more time for R&D and testing the British tanks would have been much better, bug ironed out of the better designs, the bad designs (ordered of the drawing board) identified and cancelled before production. With more time and less pressure the Cromwell would have been more like the Comet and the Churchill would have been superseded by something like the Centurion.  The Crusader would have had thicker armour and a 6pdr from the start, as well as being more reliable.  The Lions would have been built, Hood and Repulse would have been rebuilt, there would have been more large cruisers, the L and M type destroyers would have been perfected and standardised instead.  Westland Whirlwind (and the Peregrine) would have been fully sorted and in full production, along with one of the twin Merlin heavy fighters being developed. I could go on.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2019, 11:03:44 AM »
Another point: The GB doesn't state WHEN the early entry is. Most people seem to be assuming 1 Sep 1939, or shortly thereafter, but it could be any time prior to 7 December 1941.

So, what if the US didn't enter the war until mid-1940, or even mid-1941? Many of the weapons used to win the war were under development in that era but hadn't had all the rough edges knocked of, yet. Entry into the war may have seen some expansion of manufacturing of older tech to boost initial numbers & for training purposes, military forces don't expand 3500% overnight, but, as in the RW, much would have been dedicated to developing & producing new equipment.

Britain's biggest issue post-Dunkerque (apart from the fact that most of the men it lost in France were professional soldiers, the ones needed to train new recruits) was the massive loss of materiel which needed to be replaced post-haste. This was why the British couldn't afford to change over to new equipment. Until then many of its factories had been tooling up to produce new & better weapons & equipment but had to delay that process to replace the stuff lost in France.

In what scenario could that have happened to the US military?

As I see it, an early US entry into WW2 means you'd see more older stuff involved in initial actions but be quickly replaced by newer, if somewhat different, equipment within the first 12 months, which would equip the newly trained armed forces. Also, with the US industrial base directly supporting it, I think you'd see the British introducing new & better weapons earlier. For example, if the US supplied the British with 37mm guns to replace the 2-pounders lost in France without having to even try to appear neutral, British gun manufacturers could have focused on introducing the 6-pounder earlier & developing tanks to use it.

At sea the Italians & Japanese had a decent number of new battleships but the biggest threat was still land-based air-power & the ol' battlewagon wasn't designed to cope with that. Aircraft carriers & AA cruisers were, so I think that would have been the biggest focus for naval development & production. The big boys would still have been built as the big-arsed floating artillery they became it the RW.


However, that is all moot because the GB is about the early entry of the US into WW2 & what equipment it would have started with, which is where I think our discussions should be focusing.

 :smiley:

Offline jcf

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2019, 11:46:39 AM »
May 1940 somewhere over the Atlantic.

Having received a diagnosis of terminal cancer at the end of 1939 Reinhard Heydrich
conceives a secret plan to strike at the heart of the Zionist banking conspiracy:
New York city.

With a small cadre of dedicated SS men Heydrich secretly takes possession of the
Fw 200 V1 D-ACON which is still in its record flight S-1 configuration of 1938 with
2,400 gal fuel capacity.

The mission will be one way, the target is the Statue of Liberty.

Heydrich is the pilot, he has with him only two others, one as co-pilot/navigator, the
other as flight engineer. The attack will be in daylight and Heydrich will broadcast in
the clear who they are and why they are attacking, he will crash the Condor into the
sculpture dying for the glory of Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer.

Hitler doesn't know, Himmler doesn't know, the attack will come as a surprise to the
Nazi hierarchy and the rest of the world.

How will the US react? How will Hitler react? Will Churchill dance a jig?

 :icon_fsm:
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline apophenia

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2019, 02:30:18 PM »
A totally believable scenario! Doubtless SS-Gruppenführer Heydrich's excessive foaming-at-the-mouth aided in his terminal brain cancer diagnosis  ;)
"And loot some for the old folks, Can't loot for themselves"

Offline Volkodav

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2019, 02:35:12 PM »
Nice, I like.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2019, 05:51:39 PM »
Just as believable but even more violent:


16 March 1940: A convoy of US troops en route to the Philippines, to bolster the local forces & ensure Filipino neutrality is maintained as Japanese intentions to move down through SE Asia become clear, is torpedoed. 3 ships are sunk & 300 US lives lost. The Japanese claim it was an accident & that the ships appeared to be sailing towards China.

17 March 1940: A small passenger ship carrying 143 American missionaries to Equatorial Guinea (a Spanish colony) is torpedoed & sunk mid-Atlantic. Over 130 lives are lost. The U-boat commander claims to have believed the missionaries to be soldiers as they were all in khaki work clothes.


Does the United States of America just accept these as the "fortunes of war" or retaliate?
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2019, 10:37:48 AM »
Well, it seems more reasonable than Brian da Basher having the Japanese Navy launching a sneak attack on Tuscon.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2019, 12:50:10 PM »
How about the IJN slipping into the Gulf of California and launching raids on the southern portion of the Southwest United States?  I'm not sure if US relations with Mexico would allow them to slip in and out undiscovered or not, but I suspect money into the right hands (with or without Germany's assistance) would definitely assist that.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2019, 01:15:58 AM »
Well, it seems more reasonable than Brian da Basher having the Japanese Navy launching a sneak attack on Tuscon.

When the enemy is very highly motivated, anything can happen.

 ;D ;D ;D

Brian da Basher

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2019, 08:40:46 AM »
Making some progress Brian.


Gamma-01
by Big Gimper, on Flickr
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2019, 11:45:36 AM »
Just started reading American Light Tanks M2, M22 "Locust" and M24 "Chaffee" and apart from making my eyes bleed with the shocking translations it made the point that at the start of WWII the US didn't even have a tank design they could mass produce, other than prototypes and limited production types evolved from the Vickers 6 Ton.  Everything had to be done from scratch, not just vehicle design, but doctrine, and the actual configuration of the required armoured formations. 

That they achieved what they did in two short years between the start of the European War and joining the conflict in Dec 41 is incredible, to have had any expectation of them being able to do it quicker is completely unrealistic.  Without the time the evolve the M2 medium into the M3 and then M4 it is likely that they would have had no choice but to adopt and evolve foreign designs.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2019, 12:56:56 AM »
Making some progress Brian.


Gamma-01
by Big Gimper, on Flickr

Wow is that coming along splendidly, Mr Gimper! No doubt the Axis will be compelled to surrender at the mere sight of those fearsome spats.  :-*

Ironically, I'm in the midst of something non-spatted:



Brian da Basher
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:58:50 AM by Brian da Basher »