Author Topic: Air-to-air missiles  (Read 1265 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Air-to-air missiles
« on: August 18, 2019, 03:17:29 AM »
A thread for your air-to-air missile related questions, ideas etc
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 03:19:58 AM »
To start with, what if the US decided to do similar to the USSR and have both IR and SARH guided versions of their missiles.  I know there were such for the aIM-4 and even the AIM-9 albeit the latter in small numbers.  What about a IR guided AIM-7 though?

There was the dual mode seeker AIM/RIM-7R which integrated a passive infrared seeker in its radome for terminal guidance but this isn't quite the same thing.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 11:51:37 AM »
That would be an interesting whiff to model.  I wonder if you'd use a scaled-up version of an early model Sidewinder seeker, or one of the later versions?

Or how about the British doing the same thing with their IR-guided missiles and developing SARH versions?

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 02:09:32 AM »
That would be an interesting whiff to model.  I wonder if you'd use a scaled-up version of an early model Sidewinder seeker, or one of the later versions?

Depends on the era I suppose.

Or how about the British doing the same thing with their IR-guided missiles and developing SARH versions?

Well, the British did propose a variant of the IR guided Red Top called Blue Dolphin (or Blue Jay Mk. V,) using SARH for capability similar to the AIM-7 Sparrow, but it was cancelled.  In an alternate reality, one could see British birds (such as the Sea Vixen below) carrying a pair of IR guided Red Tops and a pair of SARH guided Blue Dolphins ala Soviet style:

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 03:37:52 PM »
Seeing that America adopted theAGM-78 Standard ARM, which itself was adapted from the RIM-66 SM-1 Standard SAM missile to an air-to-air missile - AIM-97 Seekbat to counter the perceived capabilities of the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 Foxbat and to arm both the F-15 Eagle and F-4 Phantom II, could the British adapt it's Sea Dart SAM likewise??


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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 10:05:02 PM »
Thanks to War Thunder I found a renewed interest in the SRAAM.  One version of the Hawker Hunter in game is available with a pair of SRAAM Tail Dog AAM pods containing two missiles each.  While the game play is a bit dodgy at times the podded missiles are very interesting and got me to wondering about how to come up with my own interpretation of this weapon based on parts I have in the spares box.  Now mind you, the bits I had were acquired years ago from several Hasegawa and Fujimi 1:48th scale Hughes/MDD/Boeing 500/OH-6 Cayuse kits that contained the optional TOW missile system where the missiles were enclosed in a streamlined pod shape containing two missiles each.  I had the bits sitting for years before taking time out to trim them up and glue the pods back to back and created something interesting but yet without purpose.  After War Thunder released the Hawker Hunter/SRAAM version for the game it dawned on me that maybe my missile pod could pass for something similar for the Hunter or some other aircraft from the period. 
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 01:32:58 AM »
Some photos of the SRAAM Tail Dog installation you are talking about for those unaware:




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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 06:13:15 PM »
I believe ASRAAM was developed from Taildog.  I recall reading that one of the development shots turned so quickly after firing, it almost took the nose off the Hunter that fired it.

The thing I liked about the design was the launch tube, making a retractable pod, as used for air to air rockets, a possibility.

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 01:26:13 AM »
I believe Tail Dog led to SRAAM which in turn led to ASRAAM.

Another photo:

« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 01:27:48 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 12:34:28 PM »
Tail Dog was a US programme.  SRAAM was a British programme.  Both were in competition to each other.  Tail Dog was IIRC dropped in favour of improved Sidewinders.  SRAAM dropped in favour of a joint European programme which was ASRAAM. 

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2019, 02:01:17 AM »
Tail Dog was a US programme.  SRAAM was a British programme.  Both were in competition to each other.  Tail Dog was IIRC dropped in favour of improved Sidewinders.  SRAAM dropped in favour of a joint European programme which was ASRAAM.

Errr...no,  The Taildog we are referring to here was a British program by Hawker Siddeley Dynamics:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%202623.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%202212.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%200716.html?search=taildog
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2020, 09:04:00 AM »
How about scale-o-rama'ing air-to-air missiles? In some cases, the airframes would lend themselves well to applications in bigger (or smaller) scales.

For example:

J32-Lansen-AIM-4-Falcon-at-different-scales by Motschke, on Flickr

The small AIM-4 Falcon looks tiny on a Lansen in the same scale. The 1/48 version looks quite usable. The 1/32 version might be too big even for a big (biggish) fighter like the Lansen. Or it could be a version with quite a long range.

I suppose this would work just as well for air-to-surface missiles.
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Moritz

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2020, 09:20:19 AM »
Alex, I'll take 1/48 AIM-4 Falcon on 1/72 J32 Lansen for $500 please.*

Thanks for putting this together. 

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Offline finsrin

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2020, 09:57:29 AM »
Interesting scalorama study.   One for lower cost practice firing.   Standard  version.   Long range version.    :smiley:

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2020, 10:17:45 AM »
How about scale-o-rama'ing air-to-air missiles? In some cases, the airframes would lend themselves well to applications in bigger (or smaller) scales.
<snip>
The small AIM-4 Falcon looks tiny on a Lansen in the same scale. The 1/48 version looks quite usable. The 1/32 version might be too big even for a big (biggish) fighter like the Lansen. Or it could be a version with quite a long range. 

The 1:48th Falcon on your 1:72nd scale Lansen looks the best of the three.  A shame I don't have any 1:32nd scale Falcons to test out on my 1:48th scale Lansens. 

I suppose this would work just as well for air-to-surface missiles.
@Moritz --- The Lansen was capable of carrying a pair of the RB-04 AShM and those things are not tiny.  Your 1:32nd scale AIM-4 Falcon could work but perhaps a distant cousin of the Falcon might serve your purposes better (AGM-65 Maverick).  Or if you chose to stay with the Falcon, for use as an AAM then by all means, keep it and make it so. 

=======================================================================================
@nobody in particular but in regards to the ASRAAM/Tail Dog:

Tail Dog was a US programme.  SRAAM was a British programme.  Both were in competition to each other.  Tail Dog was IIRC dropped in favour of improved Sidewinders.  SRAAM dropped in favour of a joint European programme which was ASRAAM.

Errr...no,  The Taildog we are referring to here was a British program by Hawker Siddeley Dynamics:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%202623.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%202212.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%200716.html?search=taildog
I have a number of TOW missile launchers sourced from the 1:48th scale Hasegawa, Fujimi, and Academy OH-6/H-500 Cayuse helicopter kits that have been taking up space with no particular purpose until now.  A few years back I took a pair from each of the kits and assembled the aerodynamic shell that covered the TOW missile container/tube and glued the halves back to back.  The end result appeals to my interests in weapons but had not really put the concept any further until realizing that the ASRAAM is about the same diameter (in the tube) as the TOW missile so now I have three sets of what-if ASRAAM launchers that need the holes filled so they appear to be loaded.  The other TOW missile launcher parts are not really compatible with the concept I have in mind so were not used.  When I get the chance, I will get an image or two of the things as they are now to share. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 10:19:53 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2020, 02:29:42 AM »
Interesting discussion.  Of course in the real world you essentially see this (visually at least) with the following:

AIM-4:



Length   1.98 m (6 ft 6 in)
Diameter   163 mm (6.4 in)

AIM-54:



Length   4.0 m (13 ft)
Diameter   380 mm(15 in)

And other variations including the AAM-N-10 Eagle (one you lose the booster):



Length   3.53 m (11 ft 7 in) without booster
Diameter   360 mm (14 in )
           
AGM-65 Maverick (as Jeff mentioned):



Length   249 cm (8 ft 2 in)
Diameter   30 cm (12 in)

AGM-124 Wasp:



Length : 1.52 m (5 ft)
Diameter : 20 cm (8 in)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Air-to-air missiles
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2020, 02:37:20 AM »
Random idea:

MIM-72 Chaparral but with AIM-4 derived missiles rather than AIM-9



but with these:

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