Author Topic: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 82656 times)

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2012, 04:03:52 PM »
End of the Cold War plus the first Gulf War resulted in a LOT of ex-Soviet booty going to NATO ranges for greater realism.  I would be too surprised to find that some had reached Canada.   This is still a mystery and I'll be interested to hear what your friend has to say.

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2012, 05:19:43 AM »
Kitnut, I'm almost positive you saw our GDF-005 and Skyguards. Around 1997, 4 AD Regt sent a detachment of Gun/SkyGuard to Cold Lake to train with the RCAF. As I recall, we fitted different muzzle brakes when firing blanks. The war shot muzzle 'brakes' incorporated fuze setting devices (ie for the AHEAD round) and looked quite a bit different than those fitted for blank ammo.

Its a good thing you got a chance to see them, as Canada no longer operates any kinetic Air Defence system. The 35mm guns, Skyguard FCU, Javelin, and ADATS have all been retired or placed in war stock.


Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2012, 07:00:08 AM »
Hi Gingie,  welcome to the forum.

Now you gave me a type designation I did a google image search.  There are a couple of photos there which certainly do resemble what I saw, what I don't remember was it being manned.  Were they ever completely enclosed like being a turret.

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2012, 07:48:07 AM »
Well that is a good question regarding whether it is manned, because the answer is yes and no.

Typically, there was an operator seated in a chair aft and central of the gun breeches. However, the Skyguard was capable of operating the guns autonomously; the gunner's controls could be overtaken and if memory serves, he needed be in the seat at all. This feature would be used when the Skyguard operator got a vampire warning light and would basically hit the panic button which would slew both guns on to the inbound missile and fire a combat burst of AHEAD ammo. Caveat - it's been around 15 years since I took my Twin 35mm Troop Commanders Course, so I might have some details wrong.

As for being completely enclosed, there was an umbrella shaped cam net that could be deployed around the gun. The gunner's station I don't recall having any enclosure, other than sides, back and bars resembling a roll cage. The gunner would be belted in, in case the FCU went autonomous, it could traverse the guns at something like 360* in just over 2 seconds. May not sound like a lot, but trust me, when you are sitting in the chair, its moving!

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2012, 07:57:31 AM »
Its a good thing you got a chance to see them, as Canada no longer operates any kinetic Air Defence system. The 35mm guns, Skyguard FCU, Javelin, and ADATS have all been retired or placed in war stock.

....nothing?

Who do I need to convince to get us some S-300PMU or somesuch?
"God save our Queen and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

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Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2012, 08:51:06 AM »
Well Pete MacKay just ducked for cover. So, it'll be after the House of Commons' Xmas Break before your can argue the case on behalf of the Bird Gunners  ;)
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaț, wynna gewitaț, wera geswicaț"

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »
Nothing dedicated as an Air Defence weaponin the regular Army. I would not be surprised if JTF-2 retained some form of MANPADS, but that is pure speculation on my part. Some folks say the LAV-III / Coyote is an effective Anti-Helicopter weapon, I have my doubts. Maybe we'll see a stinger pack bolted on to a LAV-UP turret someday...

All the Reserve AD Arty Regts (18 AD, 58 BAA, and L&R Scots) have reverted back to Field Arty. 4 AD Regt remains, but its current role as Air Defence is limited to Air space control and did provide some gunners to man the UAV Section in Afghanistan (at least they did when I was there - not sure how long it continued for). I have heard talk that the Regt will form the nucleus of a Precision Guided Rocket Regt...but in this day of TAPV, Close Combat Vehicle, F-18 replacements, I don't foresee much funding left over for a new MLRS.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 03:15:49 AM »
Since the Long Range Precision Rocket System never got past the LOI stage, presumably DND is still working out the exact requirement. But, as you say, finding the cash is the trickier bit.

The Danes tried selling off upgraded M270A1 MLRS a few years back but Ottawa wasn't interested -- maybe showing that the CF would prefer a wheeled platform? If Canada did go for something like HIMARS, couldn't we mount SAMs (ADATS or replacement) on the same MSVS SMP chassis?
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaț, wynna gewitaț, wera geswicaț"

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2012, 01:45:06 AM »
A few SPAAG from my whif folder...

Centurion twin forty:


Gepard type SPAAG with a new tracker radar mounted in the sloped turret, and a EO module at the base of the search radar:


Extended M-113 Hull with 4 x SAM and radar unit


Same hull, but with dual cannon




Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2012, 01:52:12 AM »
M-1 Abrams based gun/missile system with ADATS EO module




CV-9040 AA Turret on LAV-III 10x10



My own creation of an ADATS system mounted on a Leopard 1 hull + Gepard turret


And a very rare slide I literally pulled out of the garbage at the Royal Canadian Artillery School showing a Gepard in Canadian markings. Presumably this was mid-80's during the proposal phase of the Low Level Air Defence Project



And a Leopard 2 version of the ADATS on a boom mount. There is no way the laser would be able to keep the missile on target if the wind was blowing....and even if it was dead calm, I have my doubts the platform would be stable enough to keep missile lock.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 01:56:42 AM by Gingie »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2013, 07:07:45 AM »
Here's an oldie:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2013, 07:19:49 AM »
They did a lot with that little bugger.  I like it  :)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2013, 08:11:20 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:




Egyptian M113 with twin Zu-23 and quad SA-7:




Korean K-30 BIHO with twin 30mm on a modified AIFV chassis:

« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:16:03 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2013, 11:56:15 PM »
Down in Yuma a a couple of weeks ago, saw this outside the Proving Grounds (which some of you may have seen too)





Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2013, 03:37:04 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:





I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
Italian SIDAM quad 25mm on M113:





I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:



Well $58.00 should be a doddle then:

http://www.rjproducts.com/Catalogs/Historica_Production/Historica_Production.html

(scroll down to item HP3008)

 :)


EDIT: sorry, not sure it's still available. R&J productions are still in business, but they don't seem to be currently listing this range on their home page: http://www.rjproducts.com/
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 09:52:11 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2013, 10:04:10 AM »
It looks highly likely that the turret on this Chinese Type 95 SPAAA is based on the SIDAM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_95_SPAAA
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/antiaircraft/pgz95.asp



"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2013, 12:28:07 PM »


Well $58.00 should be a doddle then:

http://www.rjproducts.com/Catalogs/Historica_Production/Historica_Production.html

(scroll down to item HP3008)

 :)


EDIT: sorry, not sure it's still available. R&J productions are still in business, but they don't seem to be currently listing this range on their home page: http://www.rjproducts.com/


Yep am aware of the Historica conversion.  It is up there with Hen's teeth for rarity. :icon_twisted:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2013, 08:18:23 PM »
Down in Yuma a a couple of weeks ago, saw this outside the Proving Grounds (which some of you may have seen too)





These things were a case study in my Test and Evaluation masters course on how not to carry out systems engineering. 

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2013, 08:27:15 PM »
Heres an interesting SPAAG I found by chance

The T249 Vigilante 6 barrel 37mm gatling

http://prinzeugn.deviantart.com/art/Gatling-Tank-128291737

Also worth a read

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ancient-medieval-early-modern-ages/45624-greatest-white-elephants-military-history-5.html

There was aparently a 35mm version offered up for the DIVADs role.

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2013, 09:11:43 PM »

I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:

I scratched a SIDAM-25 a few years back. It was a bit complex, but very much do-able.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2013, 02:52:36 AM »

I am prepared to kill to get a 1/35 conversion for the SIDAM... :icon_ninja:

I scratched a SIDAM-25 a few years back. It was a bit complex, but very much do-able.

Do you have details/photos?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2013, 05:04:35 AM »
A couple of rarities for you:

ZRPK "Donets" :



ZSU-37-2 "Yenisei ":

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2013, 03:18:58 PM »
Here's an oldie:




Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!

M.A.D

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2013, 03:40:17 PM »
It is?  The FN-MAG58 is actually superior to the Besa, M.A.D. and we have several thousand MAG58s in inventory.