Author Topic: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 82653 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 05:47:17 PM »
Does anyone know if you can get a 1/35 kit if either of the following SANs:

SA-3 Goa (S-125 Neva/Pechora):



SA-5 Gammon (S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna):

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Offline Maverick

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 06:56:05 PM »
As with the guns, it's more a case of any you can get rather than if a specific design is made.

There are kits of the SA-3 and I suspect the -5 in 72nd scale available.  A quick check of Panzershop's website shows nada and they would have been my first thought.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 06:24:21 PM »
Gran produces the SA-3 in 1/72.  They have also promised a SA-5 in 1/72 but it hasn't appeared in the 2 years I know since the announcement.   There are no 1/35 scale kits that I'm aware of.  SA-2, SA-6 both by Trumpeter are the closest to it.  :(

Offline raafif

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »
I dug out my 1/48th OEZ Mig-21 to do a BIG sam to target bombers .... but I'll need another set of 4 wings to do it.

     I now have the 4 booster rockets for the tail tho :icon_ninja:

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »
I dug out my 1/48th OEZ Mig-21 to do a BIG sam to target bombers .... but I'll need another set of 4 wings to do it.

     I now have the 4 booster rockets for the tail tho :icon_ninja:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2012, 03:07:46 AM »
Posted by Abe (aka AGRA) over in the M113 thread:

M113 with the ARES Talon 35mm gun.





Would look good beside a Tracked Rapier.

Circa 1979, based on the M548 TLC. Each gun fired at 1,200 rpm a 35mm shell at 1,175 mps.


I guess I wasn't too far off with this:

Random idea:


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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2012, 10:19:18 AM »
Random idea:  Cheiftain Marksman with existing cannon replaced with two 20mm M61 Vulcan gattling guns.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 03:24:55 AM »
About 10 years ago I was at the Cold Lake Airshow and on display was some Triple AAA airfield defence that the CAF deploys.  These units had twin guns which looked like 40mm Bofors, only they were set low in the turret and operated remotely from another unit which had a radar on it. Later in the weekend (we were there from Friday to Monday) there was a similated airfield attack and these anti-aircraft guns were put to use, demonstrating how they were used.  But do you think I can find any photos of this equipment on the internet, or any modern NATO or western stuff for that matter.  Can anyone point me to a link where these would be shown.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 04:13:48 AM »
Probably the Oerlikon 35mm GDF-005 controlled by a Skyguard radar.



Canada phased them out a few years ago.

The Breda/Bofors twin 40mm was much less commonly used.  Here's a picture of one of Venezuela's systems.  It was far more common at sea.



Cheers,

Logan
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:51:57 AM by Logan Hartke »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 05:10:46 AM »
From what I can remember Logan, those don't quite look right.  This unit was on it's own trailer, the guns were in a turret and the guns themselves were set very low down, almost at the same level as the trailer frame.  I've seen some WWII German AAA that looks a little like it but without the guns being in a turret.

BTW, top pic just appears as the white square with the red cross through it.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 05:32:54 AM »
Probably the Oerlikon 35mm KD Twin AA Gun and the Oerlikon Contraves Skyguard Radar to control it.  Canada had a total of 20 GDF-005 units and 10 Skyguard FC radars. 

Click on html or thumbnail image to learn more about the weapon system at Wikipedia.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:37:04 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 05:53:24 AM »
From what I can remember Logan, those don't quite look right.  This unit was on it's own trailer, the guns were in a turret and the guns themselves were set very low down, almost at the same level as the trailer frame.  I've seen some WWII German AAA that looks a little like it but without the guns being in a turret.

BTW, top pic just appears as the white square with the red cross through it.


Yeah, that top photo was to the link below.  It's the same the Jeffry showed a picture of and that I'd linked to in my own post.  I've edited the first photo in mine to hopefully show up for you, now.

http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Oerlikon-GDF-35mm-AAA-Gun-1S.jpg

Cheers,

Logan

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 06:31:09 AM »
Is there a gun system like those Logan, but where the muzzles are very similar to the 40mm Bofors guns we see in old war photos, with the reversed cone shape because that how I remember these guns being like.  On the demonstration they fired individually and one at a time but at a very rapid rate

Offline finsrin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 09:33:02 AM »
The various multi-gun systems pictured above sure look leathel for passing aircraft !
If you happen to come upon one when in a tank, I'd think things could get rather nasty too.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2012, 11:09:18 AM »
Is there a gun system like those Logan, but where the muzzles are very similar to the 40mm Bofors guns we see in old war photos, with the reversed cone shape because that how I remember these guns being like.  On the demonstration they fired individually and one at a time but at a very rapid rate

Maybe, but I'm not familiar with any such mount.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2012, 11:27:16 PM »
Maybe, but I'm not familiar with any such mount.
Cheers,
Logan

I had a chat with my buddy this morning who was in the Canadian Army for over 30 years, I asked him if what I saw, was what I saw.  He immediately asked if the muzzles had cones on and when I said yes he said 'Bofors, they came off the ships'.  When I said were they installed in small turrets on trailers he said yes to that question.  Now I just need to find a photo or two of the set-up, I thought I had taken photos when I was at Cold Lake of them but it was back before digital cameras (at least me having a digital) so the photos are in a box somewhere but I can't find them now (too many house moves in a three years period to keep track of things)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 07:25:42 AM »
kit': This is very odd. The guns described sound very much like the 40mm/56 Mk.V Bofors from the old Tribal class DDEs. But those ships were paid off back in 1964-1966. The only Canadian naval guns converted to land-based AD I've ever heard of are the 40/60 Boffins.

Just for completeness, the 40mm Boffins were QF Bofors mounted on Mark VC Oerlikon mounts. 202 Workshop Depot modified them for airfield air defence duties in Germany. Boffins went to 128 AAD Bty RCA (Baden-Soellingen) and 129 AAD Bty RCA (Lahr) in 1975. But the single-barrelled Boffins didn't have turret covers.

BTW, after withdrawl in 1987, some of those Boffins went back to sea, arming the MCDV patrol boats.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:45:40 PM »
Apop', googling photos of the two guns you list, neither look quite like what I saw, similar though.  The barrels of the AD guns I saw looked like the 40/60 barrels, only they were set low in a small turret in pairs like the 40mm/56 Mk.V.  The closest I can describe how the guns were mounted on the trailer is how you see this below, only with a turret

The turrets didn't look big enough for human loaders to be inside them but I might be wrong there.  IIRC there was more than one on display and they were controlled by a remote radar unit set on it's own trailer.

In the display area they were close together, but my buddy says they would have been placed more widely apart in the field.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2012, 06:06:09 PM »
Sure you weren't mistaking 20mm guns for 40mm ones?  Your picture is of a twin 20mm system.

The Rh202 based twin 20mm AA guns had cone flash hiders on their muzzles and they might have confused you (although I'm unaware of Canada ever operating such AA guns):



I am unaware also of any twin 40mm towed systems in use anywhere.  The only operational twin 40mm Bofors systems that I'm aware of that were land based were SPAA - US M19, M42 and M247 systems.  There were several experimental ones during WWII as well but they never reached production.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 10:38:50 PM »
Further down the thread I said it was twin 40mm Bofors type guns set in a turret, I was describing how it looked and the pic I posted in my last post was the only pic I could find on how the unit looked with the guns mounted low down, I didn't say it was that particular unit.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »
OK, I know what I saw but I can't find anything on the internet of it.  I had thought it was Canadian but maybe it wasn't -- I was at the Cold Lake Airshow in 1999 (I have determined that) when I saw these guns and Cold Lake is the big NATO exercise grounds.  So they could have been another country's piece of equipment.  They were like a 40mm Bofor gun although I couldn't see inside the turret to view the breach end of the gun, so looking at various Triple AAA systems on the internet, I found something which it more closely looked like.  The guns on the M247 Sargent York are very similar to what I saw only they were not in such a big turret and it was mounted on a trailer with removable wheels. 

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »
I do not doubt you saw something.  I am endeavouring to try and help you figure out what it was.

I have just dug out my old copy of Jane's Towed Artillery (published 1977) there is perhaps one weapon which comes reasonably close to your description.  It is the Soviet 37mm M1939 AA gun, which mounted a single or twin 37mm AA guns on a common mounting and they had conical Flash Eliminators:



There is a better image here but it doesn't seem to allow linking directly to it - http://flamber.ru/files/photos/1211922554/1232648808_g.jpg

« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:32:32 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2012, 10:24:04 PM »
That is getting closer to what I saw Brian, at least how the gun barrels looked,  but I'm endeavoring to find out what it was I saw.  I've been chatting further with my ex-Canadian Army buddy who spent a lot of his later years while in the service at The Military Museum in Calgary.  He told me he would contact a friend of his who specialises in this field so I'm in a holding pattern right now.  I am though leaning towards it being some NATO country who had them and was at the range on exercise, (Cold Lake and the Primrose Live Fire range is said to be as big as Western Europe in area).

The trailer part was similar to how the old German 88 frame was, one beam running front to back with outriggers. As far as I can remember the wheels came off, but they could have folded up at an angle too.  Just can't quite remember those details at the moment.  Now if those 37mm were mounted low like how that 20mm set-up is we would be getting closer.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:31:06 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »
For people looking for something similar, the Chinese Type P793 is an updated version of Rickshaw's Soviet M1939.
http://www.jedsite.info/artillery-zulu/zulu/zp39_series/p793/p793.html

The Romanian A436 twin 30mm (firing Russian 30x210B) also fits the bill ... albeit, still without a turret cover.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%99ier:Batalionul_635_Ap%C4%83rare_Antiaerian%C4%83_%E2%80%9CPrecista%E2%80%9D_%2811%29.jpg

Still another is the Serbian 30/2 mm M53 (CS) -- ie: the towed gun, not the SP M53/70. Most M53s have multi-baffle muzzle brakes but some photos show a Bofors-like cone (the 4x4 SP prototype BOV-30 included).
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
The thing that's bugging me is I'm sure there was Canadian troops operating it, so whether or not the Russian or Chinese systems are close to what I've described, I can't see Canada using them.  Anyway, still waiting to hear from my buddy --