Author Topic: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?  (Read 1753 times)

Offline M.A.D

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Would anyone know or care to estimate the dimension of the space that the modified M102 105mm howitzer (including its special recoil obsorbing mount) takes up in the Lockheed AC-130 gunship?  Especially width-wise in terms of the C-130's 3.13m (10ft 3in) width cargo compartment!

Thanks in advance!

M.A.D


Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2018, 09:02:06 PM »
Going by these photos, I'd say about 2-3 metres.








Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2018, 12:14:30 AM »
The rather old and OOP 1:72nd scale AC-130 kit from AMT Ertl/ESCI contained an almost complete 105mm weapon plus some other interesting bits.
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2018, 07:06:20 AM »
Much appreciate your feed back and cool pictures/drawings Rickshaw and Jeffry Fontaine!!

So the prospects of mounting and employing this ‘modified’ M102 howitzer in an aircraft with a cargo compartment/cabin width of 2.67m (8ft 9in) might be stretching the friendship.

Talking about stretching friendships, does anyone know the technical term for the ‘recoil travel’ of a gun/howitzer on firing? Saying this does anyone know the recoil travel distance of the M102 on firing?

I wonder if the OTO-Melara Mod 56 105 mm pack howitzer would have a smaller dimensional (static and on firing) footprint than the M102, which would allow it to be operational in that cargo compartment/cabin width of 2.67m (8ft 9in)?

P.S. Looking at the topographical cutaway drawing of the AC-130 you've provided, the C-130's internal cargo compartment/cabin width is 3m (10ft) by my recollection, and if the drawing is to scale, then it looks as if at minimum the M102 takes up an estimated ~2m, with an allowance of an additional ~1m for recoil and working space.......

M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 07:14:55 AM by M.A.D »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 07:48:42 AM »
When I was designing a bit of drilling equipment, I was told it had to be able to go inside a C-130 and that the absolute max it could be was 10 feet wide. That was so it could go through the rear door opening. hth

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2018, 08:00:25 AM »
When I was designing a bit of drilling equipment, I was told it had to be able to go inside a C-130 and that the absolute max it could be was 10 feet wide. That was so it could go through the rear door opening. hth

😮😋 makes sense!!

Thank you for your valued input and real-world experiance kitnut617

M.A.D



Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2018, 08:30:23 AM »
When I was designing a bit of drilling equipment, I was told it had to be able to go inside a C-130 and that the absolute max it could be was 10 feet wide. That was so it could go through the rear door opening. hth

😮😋 makes sense!!

Thank you for your valued input and real-world experiance kitnut617

M.A.D

I should have said that I hope knowing that, you could scale the pics Brian posted ---

Offline M.A.D

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  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2018, 08:37:16 AM »
When I was designing a bit of drilling equipment, I was told it had to be able to go inside a C-130 and that the absolute max it could be was 10 feet wide. That was so it could go through the rear door opening. hth

😮😋 makes sense!!

Thank you for your valued input and real-world experiance kitnut617

M.A.D

I should have said that I hope knowing that, you could scale the pics Brian posted ---

Acknowledge your last kitnut617 👍

M.A.D

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2018, 08:52:32 AM »
As it is inside you could claim that they have beefed up the recoil recuperaters so that it could absorb sufficient recoil to only recoil a metre or less.  From the pictures I supplied that looks about the distance it recoils in the AC-130 (going from the yellow recoil guard at the rear of the weapon).  You could remove the recoil recuperater (the tube over the barrel) and replace it with a slightly thicker tube to take that into account, if you wanted to be truly accurate.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 10:32:07 AM »
As it is inside you could claim that they have beefed up the recoil recuperaters so that it could absorb sufficient recoil to only recoil a metre or less.  From the pictures I supplied that looks about the distance it recoils in the AC-130 (going from the yellow recoil guard at the rear of the weapon).  You could remove the recoil recuperater (the tube over the barrel) and replace it with a slightly thicker tube to take that into account, if you wanted to be truly accurate.

I like the way you think Rickshaw!! 😮👍


M.A.D

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2018, 10:32:08 AM »
P.S. Looking at the topographical cutaway drawing of the AC-130 you've provided, the C-130's internal cargo compartment/cabin width is 3m (10ft) by my recollection, and if the drawing is to scale, then it looks as if at minimum the M102 takes up an estimated ~2m, with an allowance of an additional ~1m for recoil and working space.......
If you look at the photos of the 105 inside the Spectre you can see that the gun, plus recoil length fits within the approx. 2 1/3 m from the fuselage interior wall to the back of the yellow recoil guard. That's about the same as the width of the interior of the Friendship so if you could add a small blister to the side of the Friendship fuselage the carriage could be mounted a bit outboard of the actual fuselage wall, which would provide some interior space, just a little, behind the recoil cage. It would still be a tight fit requiring some interesting ammo storage given how the loaders have to service the piece. But it might work.

Shortening the recoil stroke is a very bad idea as it increases the recoil impulse to the fuselage increasing loads on the airframe.

Just sayin'... :D

Paul

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2018, 11:40:24 AM »

Shortening the recoil stroke is a very bad idea as it increases the recoil impulse to the fuselage increasing loads on the airframe.

If the recoil recuperators are designed properly, there should be little impulse imparted to the fuselage.   There is little if any imparted to the ground, on the ground mount.   The aim is ensure the weapon remains stationary and doesn't need relaying.   If you increase the amount of recoil that is absorbed by the recuperator and decrease the recoil travel, it should all even out.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2018, 12:34:54 PM »
tankmodeler / Paul, the notion of a fuselage blister to facilitate the recoil of the 105mm howitzer makes perfect sense!!  :-*
As a simple grunt, I see what you are saying with your analogy:
Quote
Shortening the recoil stroke is a very bad idea as it increases the recoil impulse to the fuselage increasing loads on the airframe.
But then Rickshaw's counter comment also seems valid 😮😜

Thank you for your input!!


M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 12:38:40 PM by M.A.D »

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2018, 01:12:52 PM »
Something to also consider is the fact that the ammunition used with the 105mm Howitzer aboard the AC-130 is not being fired with a full powder/propellant charge.  There is no need to fire a full charge 105mm round for what is basically a direct fire support mission from an aerial platform.  Reduced charge means that the recoil forces transmitted to the airframe will not be as severe as that of a howitzer on the ground firing a full charge round against indirect fire targets. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Lockheed AC-130 & M102 105mm Howitzer Engineering question please?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2018, 01:59:18 PM »
Yes, great and valid point
Quote
Jeffry Fontaine
, more about the amount/volume of explosive delivered by a round the size and weight of the 105mm, which is what I need and I'm looking for! Which brings me back to the question of employing the  OTO-Melara Mod 56 105 mm pack howitzer in place of the in place of the M102 105mm howitzer, as I assume the actual gun -especially the breech block area would be somewhat smaller/shorter in dimensions  :-\


M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 02:03:51 PM by M.A.D »