Author Topic: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!  (Read 2304 times)

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2019, 11:32:20 AM »
Adding to my reflection on the Dassault Mirage F1..........

The thing that I've always loved ethtetically and appreciated operationally about the Mirage F1 is it's beautiful  and purposefully designed and presented landing gear. With the exception of SEPECAT Jaguar and the Sukhoi Su-24 'Fencer', I don't think a combat aircraft has such an intended and effective rough-field landing gear design.

I also liked these couple of quotes in regards to the Mirage F1:

Quote
-”I guess the Mirage F.1 excelled by being the best compromise between capability and cost (at its time). It was supersonic, moderately agile, small, had a useful radar, could be used for ground attack. Compared to its American counterparts at that time (F-4, F-5) it was either clearly less expensive or clearly more capable.”
-Schorsch, 2005

Quote
-“The Mirage F1 was a very good multi-role fighter, a relatively cheap alternative to the late production F-4E, and altogether superior to any comtemporary Soviet fighter before the MiG-29.”
- TinWing, 2005


Talking about the Mirage F1, I've become more attuned to the knowledge that the RAAF evaluated and strongly supported the notion of purchasing the F1 in around 1971-73?
If anyone has anything on this RAAF evaluation/want of the F1, I'd much appreciate seeing what you've got.

M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 11:41:45 AM by M.A.D »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2019, 02:18:44 AM »
Talking about the Mirage F1, I've become more attuned to the knowledge that the RAAF evaluated and strongly supported the notion of purchasing the F1 in around 1971-73?
If anyone has anything on this RAAF evaluation/want of the F1, I'd much appreciate seeing what you've got.

I'm not sure that's entirely the case.  The Mirage F.1 was obviously one of the platforms looked at early on when the RAAF was starting to consider a Mirage III replacement (along with just about every other platform in development/in service at the time) however I don't believe there was any strong push for it from with thin the RAAF and certainly no official evaluations.  Dassault did apparently attempt to interest the RAAF/Australian Govt in the F.1 by offering a co-production deal whereby every Mirage F.1 produced would include Australian manufacturing content regardless of whether or not Australia actually acquired the type though nothing came of this.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2019, 11:18:27 PM »
If I recall correctly both the Mirage F1 and HS Hawk (and possibly the Jaguar as well) were all offered to Australia (non solicited), with very generous coproduction and offset deals, during the early 70s and were ( in the case of the F1 at least) not dependent on Australia adopting the type.  Australia was seen as a key market and a very positive selling point to convince other buyers to order a type, so any incentive to get the "Australia bought, builds, operates them" tag was seen to be worth it.

My understanding is that the RAAF (or possibly the Def Dept) convinced the government not to go for any of these deals as they did not want to be pressured on future selections by industrial considerations.  Its not that they wanted something else, but rather they wanted to be able to choose on capability and value for money for defence, not for the Australian economy / defence industry.

If my understanding is correct, it could be argued that this tactical concentration of platform capability introduced an opportunity cost driven by strategic issues that were ignored by the desired acquisition processes.  A very generous offset deal with local production of the Mirage F1 for instance could have freed up enough money for the RAAF to retain four fighter and three strike squadrons and even supplement them with Jaguar, while adopting the Hawk decades earlier in the LIFT and fleet support roles.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2019, 09:49:29 AM »
Talking about the Mirage F1, I've become more attuned to the knowledge that the RAAF evaluated and strongly supported the notion of purchasing the F1 in around 1971-73?
If anyone has anything on this RAAF evaluation/want of the F1, I'd much appreciate seeing what you've got.

I'm not sure that's entirely the case.  The Mirage F.1 was obviously one of the platforms looked at early on when the RAAF was starting to consider a Mirage III replacement (along with just about every other platform in development/in service at the time) however I don't believe there was any strong push for it from with thin the RAAF and certainly no official evaluations.  Dassault did apparently attempt to interest the RAAF/Australian Govt in the F.1 by offering a co-production deal whereby every Mirage F.1 produced would include Australian manufacturing content regardless of whether or not Australia actually acquired the type though nothing came of this.

Thanks for your feedback Greg.
If anything, I think both the RAAF and Australian Aviation Manufacturing Industry could have benefited in a Mirage F1 M-53 (or better Spey-powered derivative 😯)

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2019, 09:51:45 AM »
If I recall correctly both the Mirage F1 and HS Hawk (and possibly the Jaguar as well) were all offered to Australia (non solicited), with very generous coproduction and offset deals, during the early 70s and were ( in the case of the F1 at least) not dependent on Australia adopting the type.  Australia was seen as a key market and a very positive selling point to convince other buyers to order a type, so any incentive to get the "Australia bought, builds, operates them" tag was seen to be worth it.

My understanding is that the RAAF (or possibly the Def Dept) convinced the government not to go for any of these deals as they did not want to be pressured on future selections by industrial considerations.  Its not that they wanted something else, but rather they wanted to be able to choose on capability and value for money for defence, not for the Australian economy / defence industry.

If my understanding is correct, it could be argued that this tactical concentration of platform capability introduced an opportunity cost driven by strategic issues that were ignored by the desired acquisition processes.  A very generous offset deal with local production of the Mirage F1 for instance could have freed up enough money for the RAAF to retain four fighter and three strike squadrons and even supplement them with Jaguar, while adopting the Hawk decades earlier in the LIFT and fleet support roles.

Thanks for your opinion/view Volkodav - interesting!!

M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2019, 02:23:29 AM »

If anything, I think both the RAAF and Australian Aviation Manufacturing Industry could have benefited in a Mirage F1 M-53 (or better Spey-powered derivative 😯)


Not denying that but the reality was that it never went anywhere.  Out of interest, I have done a story based around this scenario playing out.  It has just never been published due to lack of supporting profiles.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Jonesthetank

  • Almost as dumb as I look
Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2019, 04:03:59 AM »
Greg,

I'd be happy to have a bash at some RAAF Mirage F1s, what ever engine configuration.  Love a back story!

Cheers

Mark

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2019, 01:16:19 AM »
Greg,

I'd be happy to have a bash at some RAAF Mirage F1s, what ever engine configuration.  Love a back story!

Cheers

Mark

Email inbound
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:35:37 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2019, 04:15:22 AM »
Greg,

I'd be happy to have a bash at some RAAF Mirage F1s, what ever engine configuration.  Love a back story!

Cheers

Mark
Sounds good, and the right man for the job 👍

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Redemption – Military planes you were wrong about in hindsight!
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2019, 04:16:48 AM »
Greg,

I'd be happy to have a bash at some RAAF Mirage F1s, what ever engine configuration.  Love a back story!

Cheers

Mark

Email inbound

😯, can't wait for both backstory and profiles alike 👍


M.A.D