Author Topic: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador  (Read 7430 times)

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« on: February 19, 2015, 10:16:40 AM »
In the “real world” Ecuador had a very difficult time procuring effective military aircraft, ending up with a motley collection of Curtiss-Wright sport trainers and eight Meridionali Ro 37bis attack aircraft as their main “combat” element by the late 1930s.  After the “real world” border conflict, with Peru in 1941, they attempted to modernize and strengthen their military, but ended up with six sketchily-armed Seversky racers as their main fighter force.  Eventually, this was ameliorated by Lend-Lease acquisitions. 
In my scenario, they did not purchase Italian equipment, because the threat from Peru was countered by more activist aid from the US.  With the build-up of Japanese influence and aircraft in Peru, the government of Ecuador sought to strengthen their military forces to prepare for a potential border conflict with Peru.  Other acquisitions will be dealt with forthwith, but for now, let us turn our attention to the Curtiss-Wright CW-21B.  Ecuador had a history of Curtiss-Wright purchases, going back to their purchase of CW-14R Ospreys in 1933.  To counter the Peruvian build-up, the Ecuadorians required a fast-climbing, maneuverable interceptor aircraft.  The Peruvians had been quite happy with the CW-19R ‘Sparrows’ they had purchased in 1936, so they eagerly adopted the powerful interceptor development the CW-21B.  Twelve CW-21Bs were ordered in March 1940, with the first delivered in September of that year. At the same time as the initial order, the Ecuadorians asked Curtiss-Wright to develop a floatplane version of the fighter.  The first CW-21C flew in August 1940, and six were shipped to Ecuador.  Shown below are a CW-21B and a CW-21C of the 1° Escuadrilla de Caza, based at BA Mariscal Sucre.

Offline arc3371

  • Takes no responsibility should anyone try to turn the drawings into plastic...but we will still hold him accountable for the madness that ensues!!!
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 08:18:04 PM »
Looks good and nice to see an often overlooked aircraft get some love

Offline Tophe

  • He sees things in double...
  • twin-boom & asymmetric fan
    • my models
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 12:26:59 AM »
Well balanced! Congratulations for the designer of this improvement!

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 03:23:06 AM »
Nice work.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Online elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 10:23:46 AM »
Beautiful entries; I applaud your work.  I wonder if they ever considered re-engining the CW-21 with the Allison engine or if that would have upset the weight and balance too much?  Be amusing if they ended up with a cleaner installation than on the P-40.

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 02:39:42 PM »
The CW-21A designation was allegedly for an Allison-engined variant, but it seems not to have proceeded very far before being abandoned in favor of the CW-21B.  Certainly, Curtiss-Wright never cut metal on it, but that doesn't mean I can't  build it here in WHIFworld! Watch this space...

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 02:18:09 AM »
OK, Elmayerle,

I based this on a drawing I found on the ol' intraweb, by an apparently Italian guy named Francesco.  You can see more of his work on his blog: http://aereidifantasia4.blogspot.com/.  I have no idea what Francesco based his drawing on, but it looks familiar, like maybe I saw a similar concept drawing many years ago, but I can't be sure.  Anyway, it looks pretty "realistic."  Like many prototypes of that era, the radiator looks way too small.  If there had ever been a production version, I presume they would redesign the cooling system, just like the P-40, et al.   Maybe I will try to imagineer a later version sometime. 

Before anyone asks, no, I haven't invited Francesco here, because I can't figure out how, and don't speak Italian. 

What do you think?

Offline arc3371

  • Takes no responsibility should anyone try to turn the drawings into plastic...but we will still hold him accountable for the madness that ensues!!!
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 03:03:40 AM »
From what I can tell almost all of the drawings are by Justo Miranda that hangs out at the Secret projects forum

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2015, 03:10:41 AM »
Aha!  Thanks!

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 03:13:10 AM »
I haven't been quite sure if I like the look of the CW-21 - but it looks great in these drawings!

 :))

Offline cptmike2012

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2015, 05:22:36 AM »
Like your recent CW-21 profiles.  Outstanding work.  Would you please consider another re-engine?  This time with a RR Merlin?  Maybe a few Merlin-engined CW-21's could have been available at the Battle of Britain....

Thanks,

CPT Mike
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 05:25:35 AM by cptmike2012 »

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2015, 12:19:34 PM »
Well, Cpt Mike, the CW-21 was none too rugged - unarmored and lightly constructed.  Probably wouldn't have fared well against Bf 109s' heavy machine guns and cannon.  Nevertheless, here is the (totally imaginary) CW-21D powered by a Rolls-Royce Merlin III driving a Rotol constant speed prop.  Armament was relocated to the wing and increased to six Browning .303 machine guns.  British radio gear was also installed.  The CW-21D was known in RAF service as the Curtiss Jackdaw, and was issued to several Polish and Czech-manned squadrons.  Shown below is a Jackdaw I of 306 (City of Torun) Squadron, based at RAF Church Fenton, August, 1940. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 12:21:25 PM by Acree »

Online elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2015, 01:06:28 PM »
OK, Elmayerle,

I based this on a drawing I found on the ol' intraweb, by an apparently Italian guy named Francesco.  You can see more of his work on his blog: http://aereidifantasia4.blogspot.com/.  I have no idea what Francesco based his drawing on, but it looks familiar, like maybe I saw a similar concept drawing many years ago, but I can't be sure.  Anyway, it looks pretty "realistic."  Like many prototypes of that era, the radiator looks way too small.  If there had ever been a production version, I presume they would redesign the cooling system, just like the P-40, et al.   Maybe I will try to imagineer a later version sometime. 

Before anyone asks, no, I haven't invited Francesco here, because I can't figure out how, and don't speak Italian. 

What do you think?

I like, but I do agree that the radiator is too shallow.  I could see it evolving to something more like the Mustang's radiator and oil cooler installation.

Offline Tophe

  • He sees things in double...
  • twin-boom & asymmetric fan
    • my models
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 03:46:07 AM »
Those in-line CW-21s are very beautiful, thanks! :-*

Offline cptmike2012

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 12:48:42 AM »
Well, Cpt Mike, the CW-21 was none too rugged - unarmored and lightly constructed.  Probably wouldn't have fared well against Bf 109s' heavy machine guns and cannon.  Nevertheless, here is the (totally imaginary) CW-21D powered by a Rolls-Royce Merlin III driving a Rotol constant speed prop.  Armament was relocated to the wing and increased to six Browning .303 machine guns.  British radio gear was also installed.  The CW-21D was known in RAF service as the Curtiss Jackdaw, and was issued to several Polish and Czech-manned squadrons.  Shown below is a Jackdaw I of 306 (City of Torun) Squadron, based at RAF Church Fenton, August, 1940.

Yes, I agree with your assessment.  As a front line type I imagine it would have fared about as well as the BP Defiant.  Nevertheless your rendition is beautifully done.  Thanks for taking the time to make this one!

Best regards,

CPT Mike

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 02:59:28 AM »
I have an article somewhere talking about CW-21B operations in SE Asia.  It didn't fair too well and had structural issues as well (IIRC).  Mind you, they were going up against the Japanese forces at the peak of their power/capability.  I think it would have worked well in Sth America.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:02:39 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 09:55:40 AM »
One last CW-21 variant:  this was the CW-21E supplied to Venezuela (among others).  The CW-21E was a progressive development of the CW-21A designed to rectify some of its faults.  Equipped with an 1150 hp Allison V-1710-39 engine and six .30 caliber machine guns, and a new retractable tailwheel, the CW-21E was the best all-around version of the CW-21. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 04:50:11 PM by Acree »

Online elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 11:26:55 AM »
Very nice, indeed!!  I like the looks of this one.

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 03:35:14 PM »
OK, ONE more CW-21.  Seemed to me as though that float-fighter CW-21C would be pretty attractive to the Netherlands East Indies, so here is one....

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 04:18:47 PM »
I really like the look of the CW-21E (with 1150 hp Allison V-1710-39). I feel it is quite cartoonish with the "big nose and chin". The increased side-area up front might affect stability and you'd need a bigger tail too?

To me, the radial powered ones look more balanced from the practical point of view.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2015, 09:37:25 PM »
Now THAT I really like. Very nice.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 11:51:31 PM »
I really like the look of the CW-21E (with 1150 hp Allison V-1710-39). I feel it is quite cartoonish with the "big nose and chin". The increased side-area up front might affect stability and you'd need a bigger tail too?

Very likely based on the problems the P-40 had in that arena, which led to a number of experiments of revised vertical tail design,
which led to the enlarged fin of the K series and, ultimately, to extending the fuselage length.

The first quick'n'dirty fix would probably have been a dorsal fillet.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Acree

  • That will teach you to frustrate the powers that be...won't it comrade?
  • Sentenced to time in the BTS Gulag...
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2015, 02:07:30 AM »
Quote
Very likely based on the problems the P-40 had in that arena, which led to a number of experiments of revised vertical tail design,
which led to the enlarged fin of the K series and, ultimately, to extending the fuselage length.

The first quick'n'dirty fix would probably have been a dorsal fillet.

I completely agree.  HOWEVER, I tried a quick look at a dorsal fillet - it was aesthetically unsatisfying.  It MIGHT also be less-than effective due to being entirely in the wake of the cockpit canopy and down-sloping rear fuselage.  So, I tried an enlarged fin - UGLY. It would also add stress to an already-weak rear fuselage.  The only real solution would be an extended rear fuselage, taking the opportunity to strengthen the structure: what you would be left with would be a mediocre and uninteresting fighter that bears almost no resemblance to the original CW-21.  It would almost certainly have lost the one thing the CW-21 stood out for - an insane rate of climb. 

So, for all those reasons, I have decided to end CW-21 development with the E-model, even though its snaking tendencies would have made it an inaccurate gun platform. 

Chuck
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:11:06 AM by Acree »

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2015, 02:30:58 AM »
... I tried a quick look at a dorsal fillet - it was aesthetically unsatisfying.  It MIGHT also be less-than effective due to being entirely in the wake of the cockpit canopy and down-sloping rear fuselage.  So, I tried an enlarged fin - UGLY. ...
I was thinking that making the rear fuselage slope less might help with adding side area to the back - but probably still need more fin and rudder. That would be a pretty thorough redesign.... a different type

Online elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW-21 Ecuador
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2015, 06:28:55 AM »
Part of the problem with the later P-40's was spillage from the radiator inlet creating turbulence back along the airframe.  One of the reasons, or so it's reported, that Donovan Berlin left Curtiss for Fisher is that he knew of this problem but could never get approval from management to modify the design to eliminate the problem.  I could see the same thing occuring here.