Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 456676 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2012, 10:52:58 AM »
I find the whole subject of Kwangsi markings is really convoluted. Some aircraft showed a mix of Kwangsi and Cantonese-style red-outlined KMT stars. Then there's tail stars or rudder striping of varying styles.

One source claims that the Triangle replaced the KMT star. Others say the reverse. That seems more likely but the Kwangsi AF wasn't amalgamated with Nationalist forces until July 1937. So did they amalgamate with the Cantonese AF before the main KMT force? My head's spinning ...
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Offline apophenia

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A Herculean Chinook?
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2012, 10:54:23 AM »
Another oldie: a tandem rotor Hercules derivative.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: A Herculean Chinook?
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »
Another oldie: a tandem rotor Hercules derivative.
Makes as much sense as the Mil Mi-12 though I prefer some of the more recent gyrodyne Hercules derivative.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2012, 02:14:22 AM »
I seem to recall there being a real proposal along these lines.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2012, 02:33:51 AM »
I seem to recall there being a real proposal along these lines.
Which lines?  The gyrodyne Hercules proposal is fairly recent.  A Hercules fuselage was mooted for the proposed technology demonstrator for the Quad Tilt Rotor (kinda want to see that done with an AN-12 fuselage to give a tail gun) but I don't remember seeing this particular twin-rotor variant of the Hercules fuselage.  OTOH, I can see such an aircraft using the rotors from the CH-53E to deal with all the power there.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2012, 03:18:44 AM »
I was talking about apophenia's twin-rotor variant of the Hercules.  I will try to dig up the drawing in question.

Regards,

Greg
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2012, 04:22:01 AM »
From Scott Lowther's Blog and supposedly circa 1963:

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Offline sotoolslinger

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2012, 07:10:27 AM »
Diggin on the Heli Herc :)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2012, 07:14:13 AM »
Greg: Yes, that 1963 Lockheed-California study was my jumping off point. But I was going for a more conventional (albeit winged), Chinook-style tandem rotor rather than a stop rotor type.

Evan: I liked those GBA GyroLifter concepts as well. And they'd certainly be faster than an overgrown Chinook!
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2012, 07:16:20 AM »
Another Hercules oldie ... (mentioned as a concept elsewhere on Beyond the Sprues).
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2012, 07:18:49 AM »
Ah yes.  A quick check of the power offerings of the engines:

C-130H:
4 x Allison T56-A-15 turboprops, 4,300 bhp (3,210 kW) each = total of 6240 kW per wing;

C-130J
4× Rolls-Royce AE 2100D3 turboprops, 4,637 shp (3,458 kW) each = 6916 kW per wing;

Speculative C-130TP400 twin:
2 x EuroProp International TP400-D6 turboprop, 8,250 kW (11,000 hp) each = 8250 kW per wing!

Certainly is appealing.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2012, 07:26:52 AM »
Maybe Lockheed Martin should add a twin TP400 option to their 'C-130XL' concept?  ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Canard Hellcat
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2012, 07:37:15 AM »
A bit of silliness (inspired by Tophe) ...
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2012, 07:49:19 AM »
I wonder if those were driven rotors or if it was a twin-rotor autogyro?  Either way, 'twould make a fascinating model and the Soviet equivalent, made from an AN-12 would be fascinating.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2012, 11:16:57 AM »
Evan: There's a very short piece in Flight for 28 Feb 1963
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200295.html?search=Lockheed%20California

Flight described the Lockheed-California concept as a "Hybrid Helicopter" capable of V/STOL take-off. That suggests powered rotors but isn't really conclusive.

The image came from the Lockheed-California Newsbureau which described the design (rather redundantly) as a "Hybrid Heli-Plane", saying that this "cargo carrier ... would be able to take off and land helicopter-style." Again, not really conclusive.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2012, 12:25:56 PM »
Evan: There's a very short piece in Flight for 28 Feb 1963
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200295.html?search=Lockheed%20California

Flight described the Lockheed-California concept as a "Hybrid Helicopter" capable of V/STOL take-off. That suggests powered rotors but isn't really conclusive.

The image came from the Lockheed-California Newsbureau which described the design (rather redundantly) as a "Hybrid Heli-Plane", saying that this "cargo carrier ... would be able to take off and land helicopter-style." Again, not really conclusive.

No, not conclusive at all and there are elements in that illustration that don't bear out.  Either those two engines are much larger than the T56 or there're other engines somewhere if those rotors are powered.  Too, the gearing,driveshafts, and cross-shafting using just those engines looks to be "interesting" and trouble prone.  I'd be more inclined to believe in powered rotors if there were other engines shown (say, at the base of the rear pylon ala' CH-46 and CH-47.  I think I'd go for the more recently proposed gyroplane conversion for a vstol Hercules unless you want to revisit the 4xPegasus one Lockheed-Georgia showed back in 1972.

Offline apophenia

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Tilt Wing Hercules
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2012, 10:41:33 AM »
Or we just dump those pesky rotors altogether  >:D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2012, 11:00:15 AM »
I like that, though I think the hinge point needs to be farther forward (check out the XC-142, CL-84, and X-18).

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2012, 07:04:00 AM »
Cheers José!

Evan: I put the hinge point just in front of the rear spar like the CL-84 (although it was actually the CL-246 that I had in mind). Or do I have the rear spar for the C-130 in the wrong spot?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2012, 08:56:01 AM »
You may well have it right, I just thought the rear of the wing dropped farther down on the fuselage.  I'm pretty sure the XC-142 wing was hinged farther forward.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2012, 10:28:57 AM »
Evan: not sure about the hinge point on the XC-142. On the CL-89 the wing drops down further. But, by comparison, the Dynavert had really deep-chord flaps/ailerons compared with the Hercules.

If this was for real, probably better all around to design a new wing for the C-130 with forward slats, etc.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2012, 06:54:18 AM »
Another oldie ... this is the first prototype CU-100 drone (a conversion of the Avro Canada CF-100).
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2012, 08:17:58 AM »
That's a very cool concept, Apophenia and you could fool a lot of people with such realistic rendering!

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2012, 10:55:54 AM »
Thanks Brian. BTW, the new engines were meant to be Rolls-Royce BR710 (which are slightly smaller diameter than the original Orendas.
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2012, 12:43:34 PM »
Sent the C-130 tilt wing picture to a young guy I know who works at Lockheed.  Asked if he has done work on this.  Said - "Nope, but it would be fun if I did!"