Author Topic: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.  (Read 12032 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« on: August 19, 2013, 09:44:50 PM »
In 1920 then viscount Jellicoe toured the Dominions and reviewed their defences making predictions on the expected strategic environment (many subsequently proven correct) and recommendations on the size and type of forces required to counter these potential threats (Japan anyone?) as well as the industrial capacity that would be required to support the required capabilities.  He was pretty much ignored with the British and Dominion government distancing themselves from him and his reports.  On top of this the Washington Naval limitation treaty pretty much undermined much of the plan as many of the ships required either would not now be built or those deemed surplus would have to be retained by the RN due to the lack of replacements.

In a nut shell Jellicoe's recommendations for Australia were to form a second Fleet Unit to support the existing RAN Fleet Unit also consisting of a Battle Cruiser, a number of fleet cruisers, a destroyer squadron, a submarine squadron and a depot ship / tender.  To this would be added one or more aircraft carriers while surplus older cruisers would be transferred from the RN for coastal patrol.  In addition the RN would maintain a third Fleet unit of similar composition in Singapore.  Australia would build their own aircraft and minor warships (destroyers and perhaps small cruisers).

The Washington Treaty limited the tonnage of ships available for the RN and dominion navies, therefore even if the money were available there just were not enough ships to go around.  My premise is that Australia lobbied, unsuccessfully, to be permitted to crew a RN battlecruiser and aircraft carrier while maintaining the other elements of the Fleet Unit in home waters.  Instead County Class Treaty Cruisers for the RAN were built in Australia and 6" gunned derivatives (designed to satisfy the requirements of the London Naval Treaty) were built in Australia to replace the old Town Class cruisers.  Australian yards and factories were also upgraded to permit the construction of submarines, destroyer and cruiser turbines and guns up to 6" calibre.

When WWII appeared inevitable large orders were placed in Australian yards for Tribal Class destroyer (a flotilla of 8 was already in production for the RAN) and a request for a battle cruiser was made again, this time with more success.  In exchange for the first flotilla already in build Tribals the UK agreed to transfer HMS Renown and HMS Furious to the RAN, with the onset of hostilities both ships, along with most of the RANs other models vessels were assigned to RN operational command.

With the cruisers and destroyers coming out of Australia (and Canada, which had followed a similar process to Australia's) for the RN, it was possible for the UK to continue construction of the Lion Class BBs and their armoured fleet carriers that would have been suspended or cancelled, as well as accelerating construction of Vanguard.  Thus by the end of 1941 Australia was completing a Flotilla of improved tribal class destroyers in addition to a 6" gunned County a year.  In addition the first of a new 8"cruiser, based on a scaled up County with four triple 8", was nearing completion......

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 11:07:30 PM »
Nice! We working on carriers in this scenario, too?

:)

Guy
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 01:34:53 AM »
I'm liking this A LOT!!!  8)

Would be neat to see that RAN Battlecruiser and some RAN CA/CLs alongside the USN Cru-Des groups during the night battles off Guadalcanal!

You ever seen anything about the "Cockatoo Island Heavy Cruiser" design?  They deemed them to expensive to build in Australia and ordered the Kents instead.  Some food for thought.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19763.0.html

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Cruisers/1924cruisercrop_zps0c4ec494.png
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Cruisers/1929CockatooIslandsyddesign_zpsa4996c05.jpg
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 07:49:43 AM by Cliffy B »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 10:10:52 PM »
I'm liking this A LOT!!!  8)

Would be neat to see that RAN Battlecruiser and some RAN CA/CLs alongside the USN Cru-Des groups during the night battles off Guadalcanal!

You ever seen anything about the "Cockatoo Island Heavy Cruiser" design?  They deemed them to expensive to build in Australia and ordered the Kents instead.  Some food for thought.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19763.0.html




Yes I have and unless my memory fails me it was an evolution of the Hawkins Class which was the ultimate expression of the Town Class (of which the RAN operated 4) and were the precursor of the County Class as well as the design the most influenced the Washington cruiser limits.  The Cockatoo design was intended to be armed with 3 triple 8" and would have been a fine ship. 

I still prefer the County in my scenario though as it was a more modern and capable design, the first of a new generation rather than the last of the older type.  It would have been more of a stretch building a County but it would have better set up Australian ship building for the challenge to come.

A fantasy on mine is on 19 February 1942 Sea Hurricanes and Sea Eagles (navalized Hawker Henley dive / torpedo bombers) launched from HMAS Furious (recently upgraded in the US), HMAS Australia (converted WWI battle cruiser) and HMAS Endeavour (sister ship to Ark Royal ordered in 1938 for the RAN but on loan, with her crew, to the RN from commissioning) caught the carrier strike about to be launched against Darwin arrayed on the decks.  The IJN were caught completely off guard believing Furious and Australia to be in the Mediterranean and Endeavour to have been sunk the previous November (the ship lost was in fact Ark Royal), they knew Indomitable was in dry dock in the US which permitted them to pick off Prince of Wales and Tiger in December, the appearance of three RAN carriers was completely unexpected.  Even more devastating was the arrival of HMAS Renown and HMS Repulse leading a large force of Australian built cruisers and destroyers that systematically destroyed the entire, already crippled, IJN strike force.  The shock was completed when the land based component of the raid reached Darwin and was met by a wing of the RAAFs new R-2800 powered Hawker Typhoons in addition to the Hurricanes they had been expecting.

Completely over the top but I am trying to work towards an Australian defence force that could rip the arm off an aggressor in 1942, pretty much as Jellicoe planned.

I am also thinking of an Australian Corps, consisting of a number of armoured divisions, being sent to the Middle East in exchange for the return of the AIF Infantry Divisions as well as Divisional strength Ghurkhas and Kings African Rifles.  This armoured force would go on to fight in Italy and redeploy to France as reinforcements post D-Day. In honour of the Light Horse in WWI this force was known as the Australian Mounted Corps and units within it were titled Horse or Light Horse depending on role and scale of equipment.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 11:10:56 PM »
Sentinels? ;)

:)

Guy
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 01:05:19 AM »
Sentinels? ;)

:)

Guy
of course  :D
but with Australia producing their own aircraft and aero engines for the proceeding 20 years there would be some good alternative engine options.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 10:39:43 AM »
Ghurkas and Kings African Rifles?   Mmm, you are aware of the difficulties the Australian Government of the day had in accepting US "Coloured' troops and how they ended up only being allowed to build roads in the outback?  I can just imagine what the reaction would be to Asian and African troops!

The White Australia Policy was alive, well and racism unfortunately dominated domestic politics.  This usually worst for the Indigenous population - there were plans in early 1942 to massacre all Aborigines in Arnhem land, at one point, to prevent them being used by any potential Japanese invasion force as labourers and bearers - but it also affected relations with our Allies, most notably the USA who had few qualms about using their African-American forces in war time.

If anything though, it was World War II which spelt the end to those attitudes.   It exposed large numbers of the adult population to different races and cultures and most particular ensures that the lot of many of the Indigenous peoples was taken out of the hands of the states which were largely indifferent to their plight and exploitation by white land owners and placed it in that of the central government in Canberra and in particular the Army who treated them well, perceiving them as a valuable resource to be utilised.

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 04:38:54 PM »
... A fantasy on mine is on 19 February 1942 Sea Hurricanes and Sea Eagles (navalized Hawker Henley dive / torpedo bombers) launched from HMAS Furious ...


Something like his perhaps ;)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 05:15:04 PM »
Ghurkas and Kings African Rifles?   Mmm, you are aware of the difficulties the Australian Government of the day had in accepting US "Coloured' troops and how they ended up only being allowed to build roads in the outback?  I can just imagine what the reaction would be to Asian and African troops!

The White Australia Policy was alive, well and racism unfortunately dominated domestic politics.  This usually worst for the Indigenous population - there were plans in early 1942 to massacre all Aborigines in Arnhem land, at one point, to prevent them being used by any potential Japanese invasion force as labourers and bearers - but it also affected relations with our Allies, most notably the USA who had few qualms about using their African-American forces in war time.

If anything though, it was World War II which spelt the end to those attitudes.   It exposed large numbers of the adult population to different races and cultures and most particular ensures that the lot of many of the Indigenous peoples was taken out of the hands of the states which were largely indifferent to their plight and exploitation by white land owners and placed it in that of the central government in Canberra and in particular the Army who treated them well, perceiving them as a valuable resource to be utilised.

Very well aware of the racism and the issues with black US troops, didn't know about the planned massacre in Arnhem Land.  I was more thinking of their skill at arms and effectiveness against the Japanese than the colour of their skin, it would have done a lot to get rid of those attitudes as you indicated occurred with the US troops.  Something that always annoys me when it come to mind was the campaign to remove Monash as he was seen by many influential people to be unsuitable to lead Australian Troops due to being Jewish.  He retained his command and his place in history is assured by his lack of prominence post war probably had more to do with his religion than his mistress and some have claimed.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 05:23:40 PM »
... A fantasy on mine is on 19 February 1942 Sea Hurricanes and Sea Eagles (navalized Hawker Henley dive / torpedo bombers) launched from HMAS Furious ...


Something like his perhaps ;)



Yes very much so ;D

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 08:56:22 PM »
Ghurkas and Kings African Rifles?   Mmm, you are aware of the difficulties the Australian Government of the day had in accepting US "Coloured' troops and how they ended up only being allowed to build roads in the outback?  I can just imagine what the reaction would be to Asian and African troops!

The White Australia Policy was alive, well and racism unfortunately dominated domestic politics.  This usually worst for the Indigenous population - there were plans in early 1942 to massacre all Aborigines in Arnhem land, at one point, to prevent them being used by any potential Japanese invasion force as labourers and bearers - but it also affected relations with our Allies, most notably the USA who had few qualms about using their African-American forces in war time.

If anything though, it was World War II which spelt the end to those attitudes.   It exposed large numbers of the adult population to different races and cultures and most particular ensures that the lot of many of the Indigenous peoples was taken out of the hands of the states which were largely indifferent to their plight and exploitation by white land owners and placed it in that of the central government in Canberra and in particular the Army who treated them well, perceiving them as a valuable resource to be utilised.

Very well aware of the racism and the issues with black US troops, didn't know about the planned massacre in Arnhem Land.  I was more thinking of their skill at arms and effectiveness against the Japanese than the colour of their skin, it would have done a lot to get rid of those attitudes as you indicated occurred with the US troops. 

It wouldn't have mattered how skilful they were.  It was the colour of their skin which was an over-riding consideration to the Australian Government at the time.  As I mentioned they limited the numbers and the employment of US African-American troops which came to Australia, to the detriment of the defence of the nation IMHO.

The massacre didn't last long as a plan and was reflective of the panic which was occurring at the time.  Once cooler heads took control in the Top End, it was quietly shelved and its proponents moved onto more useful work.

Quote
Something that always annoys me when it come to mind was the campaign to remove Monash as he was seen by many influential people to be unsuitable to lead Australian Troops due to being Jewish.  He retained his command and his place in history is assured by his lack of prominence post war probably had more to do with his religion than his mistress and some have claimed.

The feelings against Monash were a combination of anti-Semitism and anti-German feeling in Australia at the start of WWI.  Remember, anti-German feelings ran high, to the point where many towns and even foods were renamed (the US and the debacle over "Freedom Fries" had plenty of precedents).  In the UK it was so bad that the Royal Family had to change their family name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to "Windsor". 

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 02:22:01 AM »
Racism and panic were common and shameful at the time and unfortunately still not that far below the surface.  As for the Kings African Rifles and Ghurkhas', they could have been sent straight to Port  Moresby.

As an aside during 1942 Australians serving overseas in Europe, I.e. Bomber crews were being sent White feathers for cowardice because they weren't back home fighting the Japanese.  I note that none of the senders were in uniform, let alone putting there lives on the line.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 09:55:45 AM »
Racism and panic were common and shameful at the time and unfortunately still not that far below the surface.  As for the Kings African Rifles and Ghurkhas', they could have been sent straight to Port  Moresby.

Well, they were all committed in other theatres.  Also, the problem in New Guinea wasn't so much a lack of troops as a lack of the means to support more troops in the theatre and move them across the Owen Stanleys.  A problem both sides suffered from was logistics.  It wasn't easy to move and support large bodies of troops across some of the most remote and undeveloped areas of the world.  The Japanese offensive in particular foundered on the issue of logistics.  The Allied one was better organised and supported but even then, it was an issue of battalions and brigades at the sharp end, not divisions.  Throwing more troops at the problem would not IMHO have helped overly much.

Quote
As an aside during 1942 Australians serving overseas in Europe, I.e. Bomber crews were being sent White feathers for cowardice because they weren't back home fighting the Japanese.  I note that none of the senders were in uniform, let alone putting there lives on the line.

A problem for any force which was divided and used in multiple theatres a long distance apart.  The locals saw their needs as paramount, not appreciating that by fighting the powerbase of the "fascist beast" (gotta love Soviet propaganda ;) ) directly was just as important as fighting it's forces in distant theatres closer to home.  The White Feather thing was and remains stupid.  Men fight or don't for many reasons but cowardice is often further down the list than most suppose.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 10:24:45 PM »
I just wrote a ^%$*& essay and when I posted it the whole %*&$&#%$#@$% thing disappeared without a trace!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted:

Once I have calmed down (and had some sleep) I will try and rewrite it!

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Australia adopts Jellicoes Plan for the defence of Dominion.
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 03:07:24 AM »
I just wrote a ^%$*& essay and when I posted it the whole %*&$&#%$#@$% thing disappeared without a trace!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted:

Once I have calmed down (and had some sleep) I will try and rewrite it!

I have note some 'hiccups' today as well - am investigating.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!