Communist aligned Israel

[GTX_Admin]

What if Israel adopted a Communist/Soviet leaning rather then a Western/Captialist one? 

One could then possibly see Israeli MiGs and Sukhois and by default (possibly) Arab air arms with Western Equipment .  Basically an entire flipping of the coin.

Thoughts?  ideas?

[raafif]

Don't know about a "Red Israel" but a Communist-friendly one is a possibility -- until they intellectually moved more towards a "thinking" socialism rather than the Soviet "thuggist" model.
Maybe Britain withdraws from the Middle-East pre 1945 so Egypt, Lebanon  & Jordan (1950's tourism continuing) would remain pro-British (no Suez war) while Israel becomes pro-Soviet -- just to keep everyone on opposite sides

Many of Israel's intellectual elite in social, military, government & artistic areas came from the Kibbutz movement -- started in 1910 by Communist Jews fleeing Tsarist religious persecution (pre-Communism).  In 1920 the political arm of this movement gains power ....
A Socialist govt. would probably have prevented the Israel / Palistine split & may have avoided the "settlers" moving on Gaza today -- Israel / Palistine would still be one country, not two -- depriving neighbouring Arab states of the current main reason to become involved. ((Moslem / Christian / Jewish religious conflicts only erupted within Israel post-1947 due to the creation of the State of Israel, previously all concerned lived peacefully together in the same streets.))

So fewer Mid-East wars ? More diplomacy ? Israel wouldn't have such a large defence industry, the technical ability that has spawned the Merkava Tank & missile-guidance systems (used in all US air-air missiles) would have gone into other areas like medical technology.
On the military side -- being pro-Communist, the IDF would be supplied Soviet weaponry ? -- JS-3Ms then T-55 & T-62 - but with a bigger / better turret.
The IDF actually found that the T-62's 125mm gun was more accurate & over greater distances (on the range) than the Centurions/M-60s 105mm -- but only with a well trained & practised crew, so, in an ambush situation, the IDF could sit their Tiran 6's on a small rise & pick off the enemy at will. The IDF did experimentally apply Blazer armour to their Tirans & they'd still design their Achzarit (T-55-based) APC.
Egypt, Lebanon & Jordan would have Centurions (later upgraded to Oliphant 1 & 2 standard) then Challengers with the Teledyne / Jordanian turretless 130mm gun & auto-loader (turret-crew now in hull) -- Jordan currently calls this still-experimental vehicle the "Al Hussein" MBT with "Falcon 2" turret.

Presume Isreal would initially get Yak-9s & Sturmoviks, Mig-15/17, later Mig-29s or Su-33s etc for the Air Force and modern Soviet patrol boats & subs too ?
Egypt, Lebanon & Jordan get Meteors, Buccaneer, Jaguar etc ?

There was a thread on this over on What-If Modellers in the Ideas Bank but I can't find it now.

[upnorth]

You guys just made me take a look back at the Socialist friendly Israel sub plot that I wrote into my Divided Austria story. I hadn't looked at it in quite some time:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=358.15

Basically, I had the reestablished Israel of 1948 spend the bulk of the 1950s and 60s experiencing a great deal of internal friction over how it was to be led.

The Kibbutz movement wanted to go with Marxist leanings while others wanted a more western approach.

Using the Six Day War in the late 1960s as a critical destabilizing event, I had the country plunge into civil war immediately after that conflict.

Clandestine help from the Warsaw Pact helped the Marxist side win the civil war and saw Israel begin to equip itself with Eastern gear from 1970 onwards.

MiG-21 fighters and L-39 Albatros trainers would have been sure things as would Antonov An-12 and An-26 transports.

Generally, I have a feeling that if the world had actually seen a Socialist friendly Israel it would be a mixed bag in terms of military equipment. Not unlike India, with a good bit of both Eastern and Western gear and a strong domestic aerospace industry to support and upgrade it all.

[GTX_Admin]

Hmmm...the idea of something similar to India is interesting.  A mixed force.

[upnorth]

Hmmm...the idea of something similar to India is interesting.  A mixed force.

I think that Israel, like India, is in just such a spot geographically and politically that neither east nor west would try to strong arm them too much. This would give the country the luxury of being able to deal with east and west as they choose.

The presence of  well developed and capable domestic defense and aerospace industries, such as both India and Israel possess, would also be a factor in getting either country greater latitude in how they could conduct their dealings for military procurement.

Neither country would have to put all their eggs in one basket if they didn't want to and the chances of anyone trying to force them to would be very unlikely from a political standpoint.

[GTX_Admin]

Interestingly, for the first three years of its existence, Israel was in the Non-Aligned Movement (same organisation that India is a prominent member of). 

The question of which side of the Cold War Israel should choose created fissures in the kibbutz movement -  imagine if a Kibbutz based Defence force resulted with some equipping themselves with Soviet equipment (albeit in small numbers).

[Old Wombat]

You would, also, need the Soviet-supported Islamic nations around it to stop attacking it.



Guy

[elmayerle]

You have to wonder, if the Soviets supported Israel, would they then, in turn, support the Muslim nations around her or would they stay "hands off"?  And if they didn't support them, who would they turn to?  I could see a Soviet-supported Israel surrounded by French- and British-supported Muslim countries.  I can't see the US getting involved there unless drawn in by events since they wouldn't, at the time, have a "dog in that hunt".

[Litvyak]

My first thought on the mention that Israel would quickly move from thuggish Stalinism to a "thinking" socialism was: Tito. And then others mentioned the Non-Aligned Movement as well, of which Tito/Yugoslavia were hugely important figures.

So, I could see such an Israel operating, perhaps even jointly developing, aircraft like the Strsljen, Jastreb, Galeb, Super Galeb, Orao etc...

[upnorth]

My first thought on the mention that Israel would quickly move from thuggish Stalinism to a "thinking" socialism was: Tito. And then others mentioned the Non-Aligned Movement as well, of which Tito/Yugoslavia were hugely important figures.

So, I could see such an Israel operating, perhaps even jointly developing, aircraft like the Strsljen, Jastreb, Galeb, Super Galeb, Orao etc...

Very good points. Israel having a hand in the development of the Orao really has some serious possibilities.

[Litvyak]

The Yugo aero industry is way too infrequently brought up! :)

[upnorth]

You have to wonder, if the Soviets supported Israel, would they then, in turn, support the Muslim nations around her or would they stay "hands off"?  And if they didn't support them, who would they turn to?  I could see a Soviet-supported Israel surrounded by French- and British-supported Muslim countries.  I can't see the US getting involved there unless drawn in by events since they wouldn't, at the time, have a "dog in that hunt".

It would be a very difficult situation if real world events were followed. The various agreements about mandates between Britain and France in the Arab world created a lot of ill feelings towards both countries in that part of the world.

The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 created a lot of problems with long lasting repercussions. The replacement of the establishment of the League of Nations Mandates in 1919 did nothing to change matters.

Syria was a real wild card state politically from 1946 to 1956, subject to several coups and overthrows until signing a pact with the Soviet Union in 1956.

Lebanon could be seen as a bit more predicable and likely to be French supplied. 

Jordan would, with Iraq, be almost assuredly British supplied as both had been British protectorates for several years.

To keep Egypt from being Soviet supplied, one would have to circumvent the Suez Crisis somehow.

I suspect strongly that had the Suez Crisis been averted, Egypt likely would have chosen to be non-aligned. By the early 1950s, the Helwan aircraft factory had been established thus showing the ability to develop a domestic defense industry in Egypt.

[upnorth]

The Yugo aero industry is way too infrequently brought up! :)

Yes and I should know better than to ignore it being as how I live in the Czech Republic, a small country with a very impressive domestic aircraft industry.

Also, geographically speaking, the former Yugoslavia would be in a great position to help Israel.

[MaxHeadroom]

A "red" Israel is no Utopia: remember the socialist roots of the Kibbuz-movement.
A lot of the founding fathers of Israel were born in czaristic Russia and also fighting with the russian socialists against monarchic oppression.
Without the votes of the Soviet Union and it's satellites, Israel might not have gotten enough votes in the UN-assembly 1948, which was necessary to declare independece. This could have produced a feeling of "thank you" to Israel and makes the midwife-USSR to a close friend.
The fact, post war West Germany was supported by the western allies to bring it back to (economic) strenght  might disappoint new born Israel and push it into Stalin's (Germany punishing) arms.

But Stalin has prevent it by his own works: he has had a phobia to jews and did only support Israel in the UN-assembly by political tactics!

Norbert

[GTX_Admin]

Some photographic inspiration for this thread:

[GTX_Admin]

Some more inspiration:

[GTX_Admin]

More real world style inspiration:




I have often wondered if some Israeli ideas might find their way back to the USSR, such as Soviet Army Achzarits.  It would also be interesting to see if Israeli thinking on things such as the Merkava in our world could be reflected in Soviet equivalents, such as:




Other ideas to be played with:

An Israeli T-72 or even T-90
An Israeli 2S1 Gvozdika or 2S3 Akatsiya

[arkon]

Israeli Mi-24 would be interesting.

[Rickshaw]

Interestingly the first country to recognise Israel as a state was - the USSR!  No if that translated into material support where does the USA go?   The USA was very reluctant to initially support Israel.   Would they be as reluctant to support the Arabs?

[GTX_Admin]

It does raise interesting idea on the Arab side.  Perhaps the following:

Syrian (keeping a French connection):

Dassault Ouragan
Dassault Mystère/Super Mystère
Sud Aviation Vautour
Dassault Mirage III
Dassault Mirage F.1
Dassault Mirage 2000

Egypt/Syria/Iraq:

F-86
F-104
F-5
F-105
F-16 (well for Syria at least given the others do fly)

[GTX_Admin]

And speaking of:

[GTX_Admin]

More:

[GTX_Admin]

More:

[GTX_Admin]

[arkon]

I know they re used tanks and other vehicles, did they do the same with any aircraft