Author Topic: Scottish Armed Forces GB  (Read 14153 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Scottish Armed Forces GB
« on: April 15, 2013, 12:44:47 AM »
Scotland is due to have a refererendum in September 2014 about whether or not to leave the United Kingdom and become a separate country. Apparently the pro-independence party plan to have fully separate armed forces, and there was an interesting article in Air Forces Monthly about what an independent Scottish air force might look like.

I don't want us to get into the politics of this (see FAIR WARNING below), but from a purely hardware point of view, it's an interesting and timely GB possibility:

What would you buy for your armed forces if you were in change of an independent Scotland?

What do you see as your strategic and tactical roles?

Would you want to contribute to international operations overseas or just do national defence?

What resources would/could you devote to it?

Would you "buy British", based on proximity, interoperability and the fact that most of your personnel will be ex-UK armed forces, or would you seek to avoid that to develop a distinctly different character for your armed forces?


For non-political reference (true as far as I know but I'm not the expert so by all means correct me if neccesary):

1. The nationalists see an independent Scotland joining the Commonwealth, the EU and NATO.

2. The nationalists see Scottish air-defence (and presumably land and sea too) as being separate, not shared with or contracted out to the rest of the UK, and with "fast jet capability".

3. According to the RUSI (Royal United Services Institute) report which prompted the article, an air force of around 2,500 with a total of about 60 aircraft (all types) is achievable. The article didn't go into Army and Navy issues. RUSI's figures may be contestable, and there may be other analyses out there.


Of course, we don't have to take things too seriously in Whiff World, so if you want to let your imagination roam free then by all means do so. This might extend from simply inventing and putting Scottish markings on a favorite but unlikely type, to giving the country and entire defence industry and building/drawing an entirely original type. Another possibility might be to retcon it: what if Scotland was always independent, going back to whatever era you fancy in military history (the avoids excluding those who think the only "proper" aeroplanes are the ones with propellors....)

Spinners did a few Scottish Air Force and English Air Force profiles over on What If Modellers in early March: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,18821.120.html (reply 1061 onwards).


FAIR WARNING:

This is a highly contentious political issue in the UK, with increasingly strident and harsh language being employed on both sides, so:

1. PLEASE keep the politics out of this thread or the Mods may well shut it down,

2. By all means go looking for plans, figures and budgets, but bear in mind that there's hardly anything that's been said on this subject that hasn't been immediately challenged by some other party. I therefore strongly advise against taking any real-world article or proposal as "gospel", including the RUSI study I mentioned earlier.

To give you a flavour of the debate, and the difficulty in establishing credible figures and plans, see this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/14/scottish-military-fantasy-defence-secretary

« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 12:56:09 AM by Weaver »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 02:47:03 AM »
There is an argument to stick with common equipment to the rest of the UK at least initially, so that could result in Typhoons etc.  I do however like the idea of going to something such as the Gripen E/F or maybe even the F-35.  Maybe A400s/C390s for transport.  Something such as EMB 145 in Maritime patrol/AEW&C roles.

Will provide a more comprehensive response later on
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 04:20:24 AM »
I can't see an independant Scotland being any better off than Ireland, which would mean something along the same lines for it's Armed Forces.

Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 04:46:59 AM »
I can't see an independant Scotland being any better off than Ireland, which would mean something along the same lines for it's Armed Forces.

 I expect most of you fellows are better informed on the subject than I, but doesn't Scotland have a substantial amount of
North Sea Oil revenue to draw on?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 05:20:45 AM »
The Scottish nationalists are planning to spend a higher proportion of their GDP on defence than Ireland, but still a lower percentage than the UK. What they'd get for that money is hotly debated.

The RUSI report suggested that MPA would be very important and suggested three or four 2nd hand Orions as a solution. Given that Scotland has 6000 miles of coastline with hundreds of close islands, I'd suggest that a few smaller, simpler coastal patrol types would be a useful addition to that, allowing their Orions to concentrate on the oil fields and the sea lanes to the distant islands. Something like the BN Islander or a Beechcraft twin would seem to fit the bill. Pilatus PC-12 maybe?

If they want fast jets then 2nd hand F-16s would seem the cheapest default solution. Probably wouldn't be able to afford many upgrades beyong the strictly neccessary, but then with maybe only a dozen, they'd be pretty much limited to national air defence anyway. Are there any of those Block 15 ADF ones spare at Davis Monthan?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 05:24:45 AM »
I can't see an independant Scotland being any better off than Ireland, which would mean something along the same lines for it's Armed Forces.

 I expect most of you fellows are better informed on the subject than I, but doesn't Scotland have a substantial amount of
North Sea Oil revenue to draw on?

Well!  as we know here in Alberta, you can't rely on that.  Slightest hiccup in the economy and the energy companies shut everything down real quick.  But my bro-in-law is a Scot, but lives and works in the Liverpool area, he tells me that unemployment is at the highest it's been for a number of years, effecting Scotland more so.  I can't see that just the energy sector alone actually being able to support all or any of an economy --
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 08:52:36 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 05:57:55 AM »
North Sea oil is a declining asset, and the proportion of the revenue that an independent Scotland would "inherit" is as yet undecided.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 07:20:38 AM »
If you want a reason to boost a Scottish Defence Force from token Irish style force to Fighting Scots glory just have them embrace private military contracting at a state level. In order to boost their economy and cut unemployment the Scots could offer their armed forces for UN missions and state to state contracts. Including a fleet of combat boats and corvettes built and manned by the fishing communities restrained by EU environmental quotas. The European Gurkhas.

Offline deathjester

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 07:28:41 AM »
April's Air Forces Monthly has a good section on this issue.  The consensus is that the Hawk would be the best bet for a Scottish Air Force, with Britain paying to keep open a base in Scotland running a distinct second!

Offline Weaver

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 07:57:00 AM »
Quick'n'dirty: Scottish F-16:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 10:09:08 AM »
Found the RUSI article: http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/End_of_an_Auld_Sang.pdf

Note that the article talks about the SNP (Scottish National Party) having an anti-NATO membership policy that might change in the near future. This is already out of date: SNP leader Alex Salmond has said in the last few days that an independent Scotland would definately want to be a NATO member.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 01:34:07 PM »
I'm tempted to throw a profile together quickly but I doubt it'd go over without creating a crapstorm so I won't bother... :P
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 04:42:01 PM »
If you want a reason to boost a Scottish Defence Force from token Irish style force to Fighting Scots glory just have them embrace private military contracting at a state level. In order to boost their economy and cut unemployment the Scots could offer their armed forces for UN missions and state to state contracts. Including a fleet of combat boats and corvettes built and manned by the fishing communities restrained by EU environmental quotas. The European Gurkhas.

I love this idea.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 10:13:15 PM »
Honestly, I was reading that Pakistan and Bangladesh basically do that for the UN.  They're a major source of revenue for the nation's military.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 02:05:17 AM »
Honestly, I was reading that Pakistan and Bangladesh basically do that for the UN.  They're a major source of revenue for the nation's military.

Cheers,

Logan

There's a difference between having Professional Private Military Companies and the simple revenue earning that the likes of those do...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 03:45:05 AM »
I'm tempted to throw a profile together quickly but I doubt it'd go over without creating a crapstorm so I won't bother... :P

Oh go on, go for it..... >:D
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2013, 05:16:34 AM »
I'm tempted to throw a profile together quickly but I doubt it'd go over without creating a crapstorm so I won't bother... :P

Oh go on, go for it..... >:D

I second that!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2013, 09:59:40 AM »
As an alternative to the F-16, how about Scotland buys a squadron of second-hand Mirage 2000s? Brazil has bought second-hand French air force ones and one presumes that more will become available due to Rafale deliveries. Also, a deal to sell the Rafale to the UAE is allegedly conditional on Dassault buying back or finding a buyer for the UAE's Mirage 2000 fleet.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline deathjester

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2013, 08:29:14 PM »
IIRC, the French are soon to retire their Mirage 2000N's - they'd be pretty good for a Scottish Air Force.  BTW, any educated guesses as to what the markings might look like?  I reckon I could do a sheet of them if they're not too complex!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2013, 12:02:29 AM »
IIRC, the French are soon to retire their Mirage 2000N's - they'd be pretty good for a Scottish Air Force.  BTW, any educated guesses as to what the markings might look like?  I reckon I could do a sheet of them if they're not too complex!


I don't think anything's been decided officially yet - that'd be getting a bit ahead of themselves.

I had a pop at some lo-vis ones in my F-16 profile below.  Faded out Saltire with "clear" white stripes on the tail (i.e. the underlying grey shows through, and grey thistles as the wing "roundels".
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2013, 01:00:44 AM »
My personal thoughts are there wouldn't be a Scottish Armed Force, I can see them leasing bases out to the UK so that there's an income from them.  Most of the money made would be to support social programs etc ----  does Scotland have a product that they can sell ?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2013, 01:06:15 AM »
does Scotland have a product that they can sell ?

If the demand for haggis somehow increases they may well have that market covered ;)

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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2013, 01:13:17 AM »
does Scotland have a product that they can sell ?

Scotch.

As for the roundels... give it a few years, and you'll have a blue disc with a ring of gold stars inside, or something similar, maybe a St Andrews Cross flag on the tail to show that the given plane is from the EU Province of Scotland...
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2013, 02:31:42 AM »
does Scotland have a product that they can sell ?


Scotch.



Don't laugh either - that is one of the key 'manufactured' products and is actually one of the key contributors to the overall UK economy...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 02:40:52 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Scottish Armed Forces GB
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 02:43:07 AM »
Well, if they ever got a Firefox-style fighter that required you to think in Scots, I think they'd find them impervious to theft.

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>


Cheers,

Logan