Author Topic: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic  (Read 5182 times)

Online elmayerle

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Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« on: January 06, 2013, 02:09:18 AM »
http://www.readability.com/read?url=http%3A//www.thecuttingedgenews.com//index.php%3Farticle%3D78228 describes a different approach to WMDs that could've had interesting consequences in ending WW II in the Pacific.  Forgive me if the URL isn't the greatest, I got it off another site I watch.

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 02:31:01 AM »
Read that same article without the loading issues via Gizmodo earlier this week which provided a link to the original report from the The Telegraph, NZ.  Original news article: Tsunami Bomb.  By Jonathan Pearlman, Sydney, 14:50GMT, 20130101
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Online elmayerle

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 04:04:32 AM »
Make for an interesting AU where, instead of using the A-bomb, the submarine strangulation of Japan continues and then these are used.  Of course, if those rumors about what they were doing in what's now North Korea, and how far along they got, were true, things could get really strange.

Offline deathjester

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 07:17:22 AM »
I'm almost afraid to ask - what rumours???

Online elmayerle

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 07:55:29 AM »
I'm almost afraid to ask - what rumours???
Supposedly, and there's a book out about this, Japan had an active nuclear weapons program, too, and it was rather ahead of Germany's (ou may recall that, after Germany's surrender, a U-boat carrying a cargo of U235 to Japan surrendered to the US).  It was located at an industrial complex in what is now North Korea (the Chosin reservoir was originally constructed to provide hydro-electric power to this complex).  There are further rumors that they got off a successful teste shot between the two bombs on the home islands but lacked a delivery system.

Offline Geoff

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 06:36:52 AM »
The book is  "The Nuclear Axis" by Robert Henshall.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2013, 02:34:28 PM »
I've not really studied the subject but my own feeling regarding some of the main objectives of Operation Olympic were to deny the USSR the Japanese islands to use for military bases in the Pacific region.

If the Japanese had not surrendered to the western Allies after the A-bombings, & if Olympic had not subsequently proceeded, it is a fairly good bet the USSR would have invaded Japan, thereby giving it much better acces to the Pacific region than it had. This is something I believe the US was trying very hard, militarily & politically, to avoid & why Olympic would have gone ahead if the A-bombs had not caused the Japanese surrender.

Given the article, I would not be surprised if an A-bomb tsunami would not have been trialed & used as a precursor to Olympic, if the Japanese had not surrendered.

Cheers!

Guy ;)
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Offline AGRA

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 03:53:31 PM »
I think the Soviets would have liked to invade Japan but by what means? They lacked a fleet in the Pacific and certainly the level of shipping needed to land and sustain a sufficient fighting force. Japanese defences were also ferocious and were to be countered by a huge fleet of gunboats (converted landing craft) and massive numbers of fighters by the USA lead invasion. The Soviets would have had none of this and would have been cut up on the beaches if they could make it across the seas. Then of course the north west coast of Japan is the rugged side with far more mountains and less ports than the south east coast. The Soviets also had very poor logistical depth at the end of WWII. After the appropriate reconstitution pause (a few months by Eastern Front standards) at the end of the Manchurian Invasion they would have wanted to drive south and capture more of China (if the war had continued). China was a much more immediate and obtainable goal for the Soviets in 1945-46 than Japan was.

Operation Downfall (aka Olympic) was all about ending the war. The allies couldn't know at what point the Japanese would have enough from bombing and blockade and would surrender. They had to plan and grit for taking it all the way to the Emperor’s bunker as was needed to destroy Nazi Germany. By all evidence the Japanese could take everything you could through at them. Every city vulnerable to fire storms had been destroyed and Allied air was systematically flattening everything else in the country. Fortunately the nuclear bombs were what was needed to finally end the war.

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
After the appropriate reconstitution pause (a few months by Eastern Front standards) at the end of the Manchurian Invasion they would have wanted to drive south and capture more of China (if the war had continued). China was a much more immediate and obtainable goal for the Soviets in 1945-46 than Japan was.


Actually that is an interesting scenario.  Would the Likes of the USA and Commonwealth forces decide to get involved against the USSR in China in '46?  Would we see WWIII break out in the east as a result rather then the Korean war?  Hmmm...might provide fuel for more ideas.
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Offline AGRA

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 05:03:46 PM »
Actually that is an interesting scenario.  Would the Likes of the USA and Commonwealth forces decide to get involved against the USSR in China in '46?  Would we see WWIII break out in the east as a result rather then the Korean war?  Hmmm...might provide fuel for more ideas.

 I guess they would be trying to get more of the Japanese occupied China. Like the Shantang plain and Shaghai. Which with their Communist Chinese puppets (as they were at the time) give them control over most of China except the inland and Cantonese south.

I doubt we would see a USSR vs USA fight break out. But it could - pervesely - lead to a much stronger KMT "South China" being more strongly reinforced by the USA post war to counter a much stronger appearing Communist "North China". The KMT would also have better geography to hold back any Communist offensive. Which might be a bigger version of the Korean War. All gist for the Whiff mill...

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 05:13:13 PM »
Might provide a scenario to introduce my Taiwanese Gloster Javelin.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 11:05:32 AM »
But it could - pervesely - lead to a much stronger KMT "South China" being more strongly reinforced by the USA post war to counter a much stronger appearing Communist "North China". The KMT would also have better geography to hold back any Communist offensive. Which might be a bigger version of the Korean War. All gist for the Whiff mill...

Oh how do we get rid of that fifth column George Marshall...... or maybe we can hope that, since the World War was still on, he wouldn't have been in the position to screw the Nationalist government in this scenario.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 11:17:09 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 11:49:09 PM »
Just came across this today.  It's a pretty nice comprehensive list, complete with contracted amounts and the number actually built.  Thought some of you would like it.

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Stats/WW2_US_Cancellations.htm

Here's an snippet of the extensive list:

Ground Vehicles Canceled

    M29C Weasel Tracked Carriers – 10,692 canceled on V-J Day, along with the Ford-Studebaker Factory to be used for production. [23]

    LVT(3) Amphibian Tractor. 412 canceled in August 1945. [26]
    LVT(4) Amphibian Tractor. 1,838 canceled in August 1945. [26]
    LVT(A)(5) Amphibian Tank. 250 canceled in August 1945. [26]

    T29 Heavy Tank (105mm HV gun) – Between 1,000 and 1,200 canceled August 1945. Production would have started Jan 1946 at Detroit Tank Arsenal.

    Heavy Weight Combat Team (M26 Pershing Hull)

           M26 (T26E3) “Pershing”. (? TBD)
           T26E4 “Super Pershing”. 975 canceled in March 1945. 25 built.
           T26E5 “Jumbo Pershing”. Program canceled. 27 built.
           M45 (T26E2). 185 built total, canceled (?)
           T84 HMC (8-inch Hwtzr). Program canceled at end of war. 2 built.
           T92 HMC (240mm Hwtzr). 120 ordered, 5 completed and being prepared for shipment to the PTO with concrete piercing shells when war ended, causing cancellation of the remaining 115 vehicles. [28]
           T93 GMC (8-inch gun). Program canceled. 2 built and being prepped for shipment to PTO with concrete piercing shells when war ended.

    Medium Weight Combat Team (M4 Sherman Hull)

           M40 (T83) GMC (155mm gun) 600 ordered. 289 canceled. 311 built.
           M43 (T89) HMC (8-inch Hwtzr) Standardized in August 1945. Only 48 built.
           T94 MMC (250mm mortar) Program Canceled. 1 built. Pacific Army units wanted two each in regimental cannon companies.

    Light Weight Combat Team (M24 Chaffee Hull)

           M19 (T65E1) SPAA (40mm Bofors) 904 ordered August 1944. 619 canceled at war’s end. 285 built.
           M37 (T76) HMC (105mm Hwtzr) 448 ordered. 132 canceled. 316 built.
           M41 (T65E1) HMC (155mm Hwtzr) 250 ordered. 190 canceled. 60 built.
           T6E1 (Recovery Vehicle) Program Canceled. 1 built.
           T38 MMC (4.2” Mortar) Program Canceled. 1 built.
           T77/T77E1 SPAA (4 x .50 cal) Program Canceled. 1 built.
           T96 MMC (155mm Mortar) Program Canceled. 1 built.

Small Arms Canceled

    Rifle, Caliber .30 T20E2 – 100,000 canceled around V-J Day. Fully automatic Garand.
    57mm Recoilless Rifle M18/T15E9 – 1,359 limited production items canceled, 650 made [24] [25]
    75mm Recoilless Rifle M20/T25 – 742 limited production items canceled. 1,258 made. [24][25]
    105mm Recoilless Rifle M27/T19 – 540~ canceled. [24][25]
    3.5” Rocket Launcher M20/T74 – 5,000 limited production items canceled [24]
    4.2” Recoilless Chemical Mortar – 883 limited production items canceled. 117 built.

Missiles / Flying Bombs Canceled

    Willys-Overland JB-2 “Loon” – 10,600~ canceled after V-J Day. 1,400~ built. Clone of V-1 Buzz Bomb. [11]
    RCA/National Bureau of Standards “Bat” – 7,000~ canceled after V-J Day. 3,000~ built. Guided anti-ship missile. [12]

U.S.A.A.F Fighters Cancelled

    Lockheed P-38L-5-VN “Lightning” – 1,887 canceled after V-J Day. Convair built. 113 planes completed by August 1945.
    Lockheed P-38L-5-LO “Lightning” – 1,380~ canceled after V-J Day.
    Republic P-47N “Thunderbolt” – 5,934 canceled after V-J Day. [9]
    North American P-51D “Mustang” – 1,000 canceled after V-J Day.
    North American P-51H “Mustang” – 1,445 canceled after V-J Day. 555 completed by V-J Day with last aircraft delivered in 1946. [9]
    North American P-51M “Mustang” – 1,628 canceled after V-J Day. Single plane built. [9]
    North American P-51L “Mustang” – 1,700 canceled after V-J Day. Never Built. [9]

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 11:17:30 AM »
    Heavy Weight Combat Team (M26 Pershing Hull)

           M26 (T26E3) “Pershing”. (? TBD)
           T26E4 “Super Pershing”. 975 canceled in March 1945. 25 built.
           T26E5 “Jumbo Pershing”. Program canceled. 27 built.
           M45 (T26E2). 185 built total, canceled (?)
           T84 HMC (8-inch Hwtzr). Program canceled at end of war. 2 built.
           T92 HMC (240mm Hwtzr). 120 ordered, 5 completed and being prepared for shipment to the PTO with concrete piercing shells when war ended, causing cancellation of the remaining 115 vehicles. [28]
           T93 GMC (8-inch gun). Program canceled. 2 built and being prepped for shipment to PTO with concrete piercing shells when war ended.

Jumbo Pershing...... um...... (trying to imagine how an "jumbo-style" up-armoured Pershing might look like)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 11:46:31 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline jschmus

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Re: Alternate to A-Bombs and Operation Olympic
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 01:00:29 PM »
Per Wikipedia, this was the M26 "Super Pershing" (a T26E4 with extra armor)
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