Author Topic: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles  (Read 49062 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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The original image and links that I posted for a really interesting M60 Patton III have vanished.  So welcome to the topic on the M26, M46 (and M45), M47, M48, M60, and M103 Family of vehicles. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 08:47:39 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 08:24:50 AM »
Definitely nice detail work - very realistic.  Thanks for posting.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Paul A. Owen posted this question on the forum at Track-Link in this topic titled M26 in British Service:

Paul askes the question:
Quote
In "The Universal Tank" by David Fletcher, he states that the British had ordered 500 M26 and received a "handful" at the end of the war. Although they were not used in service like the ones in the US Army were.

There is one photograph showing an M26 with the serial number "T345711".

Is there any other information on these few British M26 around?


Kurt Laughlin's reply:
Quote
The Ordnance records show only six had been sent to the UK by V-J Day. I doubt they were used for anything but testing.

KL


Some definite what-if potential for Pershings in British, Canadian, and other Commonwealth markings. 
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Most definitely!
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Offline dy031101

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M46E1

Mid-Life Upgrade for what-if export M26 and M46?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 09:11:14 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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A timely thread for me since I have a What If M26 based tank currently stuck in development hell on the table behind me. I know what I want to do and I have the kits to it but the past few weeks have been non-stop Real Lifeô for me.

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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I wonder how well a long barreled 105mm would fit onto an M26 or M46.
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Offline dy031101

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I wonder how well a long barreled 105mm would fit onto an M26 or M46.

I wonder how much more room the M26 turret has compared to the T23 (they have the same turret ring size).  T23, which ended up being used by the M4 Sherman, can accommodate up to the lower-powered French 105mm/L44.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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IIRC, the Spanish installed 105 mm L7/M68 in their final upgrade of the M47. Of course, the turret ring is a bit larger than on the M26/M46 but hey, it might still work.
-

Offline dy031101

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IIRC, the Spanish installed 105 mm L7/M68 in their final upgrade of the M47. Of course, the turret ring is a bit larger than on the M26/M46 but hey, it might still work.
-

M46E1 uses the same T42 turret on the M47, so......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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This wild thought came into my head today. An SP assault gun based off of an M26. When I get home from the road next month,I will see if it is possible to mate the superstructure on my Eastern Express SU-152 onto the hull of the M26.
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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I wonder how well a long barreled 105mm would fit onto an M26 or M46.

 There were a couple of late-war/post-war experiments with turreted 105 & 155* mm guns on
 what I think was a lengthened M26 chassis ( one extra roadwheel ) , but I'm at work and don't
 have my reference books.

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Offline dy031101

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 09:19:43 PM »
Before:









After:















==================================================

Well since GTX brought up the idea of 152mm gun from MBT-70......

What of a "Starship Perfect" with XM150 improved as suggested by Jeffry Fontaine?  Might even use a simplified MBT-70 turret (no driver's position or remote AA cannon) for the bigger gun.

Or we can make the turret XM1-inspired.  Or just 120S with that 152mm gun......  :icon_music:
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 01:04:17 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 02:43:16 AM »
From a survivability perspective, it would be tactically sound to use the same turret as the standard tank to get rid of that signature look that identifies you as the higher threat in any engagement.  Use the standard turret and all of the normal features to help it blend in with the rest of the tribe and not stand out as the target to be engaged first.  I was never impressed with the M60A2 turret and it did nothing to improve on creature comforts inside with the reduction in internal volume.  Humping ammunition that is heavy and bulky from the storage container to the breech means you need room to maneuver the ammunition (and Shillelagh missile) inside the turret in order to not bang it off the walls before it is loaded and fired. 

There was an image in one reference book showing the 152mm gun/missile launcher mounted in what appeared to be a standard M48 turret which demonstrates that there was no special requirements to adapt the ordnance to the mount as it seems to have fit without any major modifications. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:48:13 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline dy031101

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2012, 11:23:38 AM »
There was an image in one reference book showing the 152mm gun/missile launcher mounted in what appeared to be a standard M48 turret which demonstrates that there was no special requirements to adapt the ordnance to the mount as it fit within the existing dimensions with minimal modifications.

That the one?

(See attachment)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2012, 11:37:08 AM »
There was an image in one reference book showing the 152mm gun/missile launcher mounted in what appeared to be a standard M48 turret which demonstrates that there was no special requirements to adapt the ordnance to the mount as it fit within the existing dimensions with minimal modifications.
That the one?

(See attachment)

Yep, looks to be the same vehicle but the image I recall was in black and white and I believe originated with the Chrysler Corporation. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline dy031101

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 08:25:52 AM »
Actually that picture got me wondering......

...... is XM150 merely a longer-barrelled version of M81 or a different weapon firing ammunitions of the same specifications?  Would there be any reason why that up-gunned M48 would have been better off sticking with the short-barrelled M81, or would it simply be that if it can handle the M81, it can handle the long-barrelled XM150?

EDIT: Upon some online browsing, I have a couple of questions- is the gun used by that up-gunned M48 the same one used by M60A2 or M551?  I've come across some references that say they are not exactly the same weapon.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 11:26:34 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jeremak

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2012, 03:42:52 AM »
That short barrel launchers give me idea: what about Cold War era reincarnation of American WWII turret tank destroyers? Take M48, or M60 carriage, and put lightly armoured turret on it, with gun/launcher with able for firing on high elevation angle (firing from behind walls and hills), with targeting pod on crane.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 05:35:39 AM »
...... is XM150 merely a longer-barrelled version of M81 or a different weapon firing ammunitions of the same specifications?  Would there be any reason why that up-gunned M48 would have been better off sticking with the short-barrelled M81, or would it simply be that if it can handle the M81, it can handle the long-barrelled XM150?

EDIT: Upon some online browsing, I have a couple of questions- is the gun used by that up-gunned M48 the same one used by M60A2 or M551?  I've come across some references that say they are not exactly the same weapon.

The M81 Gun/Missile Launcher on the M60A2, M551 Sheridan, and prototype M48 were all basically the same weapon system or a derivative of that system that fired a lower velocity (lower chamber pressures) ammunition.  The XM150 152mm Gun/Missile Launcher used with the MBT70/XM803 that was designed to fire a higher velocity ammunition such as the APFSDS ammunition designed for it.  The Sheridan and M60A2 were not able to fire a high velocity round such as this and relied on the HEAT and HE ammunition for achieving success or the Shillelagh for long range but still with a very low velocity since HEAT ammunition does not require high velocity to achieve penetration.  That is done with the high velocity jet created by the shaped charge and molten metal upon impact with the target. 

Link to some information on the XM150E5 152mm Gun/Missile Launcher used with the MBT-70/XM803 at Wikipedia.

Link to some information on the M81E1 152mm Gun/Missile Launcher used with the M551 Sheridan AAAV and the M60A2 at Gary's Combat Vehicle Reference Guide. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline finsrin

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 05:21:15 AM »
AMT has a 1/72 M48A5 kit.
Is there a M48A3 gun barrel or muzzle piece on market to convert it to 90mm appearance ?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 10:35:17 AM »
AMT has a 1/72 M48A5 kit.Is there a M48A3 gun barrel or muzzle piece on market to convert it to 90mm appearance ?

Look for something similar in size to the 90mm gun tube from another kit or try to make one on your own from plastic rod.  No idea if there is an after market replacement from metal available to make it just a matter of drop in to replace it.  Since you want to go retro you are stuck with few options and the muzzle brake on the M47 and M48 are quite unique. 
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Offline jschmus

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 08:52:36 PM »
AMT has a 1/72 M48A5 kit.
Is there a M48A3 gun barrel or muzzle piece on market to convert it to 90mm appearance ?

Not sure if this would help at all, but both Pegasus and Trumpeter have done 1/72 kits of the M46.  The 90mm guns aren't the same as those used on the M48, but the barrels would be the right size.
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Offline finsrin

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 08:44:15 AM »
Been looking at various M48 kits.  Never picked up on this before.  Some have three return wheels for tracks, others have five wheels.  One kit even shows five on box art while model in box has three.  Does not matter for my kinda kitbashing.  Just a curiosity question --- anyone know what story is with M48 track return wheels ?

Can call it:   Tank Trivia
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 09:26:41 AM by finsrin »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 08:46:10 AM »
I have a whole book somewhere that covers the M48.  Will look up for you when it cools down here...  :icon_sueno:
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 10:10:03 AM »
Which model of the M48 do you refer?  I have a book from 1982 that shows 7 Road Wheels and 5 smaller wheels at the top in addition to the drive "sprocket" at the rear top on a M48A5 (1980).  An M48A2 (1968) and an A3  has the same configuration but only 3 wheels at the top.  Another photo shows an A3 with the same config as the A5 listed above (1970).  A photo on an A1 (1964) shows same config with 5 wheels at the top.  Seems like it was a model/year thing that constantly changed.

Pardon my ignorance for the terminology I used.  I'm not very well versed in armor  :-[
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