Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 1057675 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3100 on: April 03, 2023, 02:12:03 AM »
Errr...would that work?

Dunno. My inspiration came from the ZSU plonking all sorts of old armour (and even a replica Panther!) at crossroads, etc., to make these locations look better-defended than they really are. (I believe the notion is that 'real' armour will take a few hits before exposing itself as a hulk. Thus, RU firing positions are revealed, munitions expended, etc.)

My reasoning for the above was that UA had a bunch of dead/moribund T-55s they'd been trying to offload. So, how about a few T-55s got quick 'make-overs' as fake Leopard 2A4s?

Would such a decoy concept work? Depends upon RU sensing. With painted cladding (plywood?), the shape should be fairly convincing from above. (HE would blow off such cladding but APDS or APFSDS would not.) That these Леопард decoys are sub-scale would only be immediately apparent if positioned close to other man-made objects.

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3101 on: April 03, 2023, 03:03:51 AM »
Hmmm...I wonder about doing some remote controlled T-55s
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3102 on: April 03, 2023, 03:12:47 AM »
Hmmm...I wonder about doing some remote controlled T-55s

Maybe even a modernised equivalent to the SU-122-54 but with 125mm 2A46 gun and autoloader from T-72 put in low profile fixed mount thus removing need to control turret and also make easier to utilise gun.  Cameras allow for vehicle aiming...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 01:34:13 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3103 on: April 03, 2023, 08:03:34 AM »
Hmmm...I wonder about doing some remote controlled T-55s

I had considered UGV mods to UA T-55s for the Automatons on Parade GB but ended up going with Leopard 1 mods instead - what with all those turretless Leo 1s laying around in Belgian storage sheds  ;)

Here, I've veered off on to an entirely different angle. To wit: After the ultimate defeat of 'Z Force', UA begins preparing for any potential 'Round 3' with RU.

To make up for wartime attrition and to expand the ZSU's war-proven SPAAG fleet, Kyiv buys up as many stored Gepard turrets as are available. As German stocks thin, [1] Kyiv turns to stored Dutch and Belgian Gepard turrets. While German turrets go onto available Leopard 1 hulls, the Dutch and Belgian turrets are mounted on adapted T-72 hulls. [2]

Гепард 72 - An Eastern 'Cheetah'

When not positioned to defend Ukraine's cities and infrastructure, Hepard 72s are deployed with non-Leopard-based armoured formations. The Hepard 72s' Dutch and Belgian turrets are identical to the German type but differ in radar types. This is deemed acceptable until Kyiv's budget permits a fleet-wide modernization of radar - both search and tracking types. Until then, the T-72-based hollands'ki harmaty will continue to use their obsolescing Signaal sensors.

____________________________________

[1] Rather belatedly, BAAINBw Koblenz realized that stored Gepard turrets could be easily mounted on the Bundeswehr's older and un-updated Leopard 2 hulls - the Gepard/Leo 1 and Leo 2 having exactly the same turret ring diameters.

[2] The T-72 has a somewhat larger turret ring than the Gepard/Leopard, which necessitated the fitted of adapter discs sized for the Leopard turret race.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3104 on: April 04, 2023, 01:45:15 AM »
Hmmm...would a Gepard turret fit on a BTR-4 (see below).  I suspect not but still...

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3105 on: April 04, 2023, 02:50:24 AM »
Another idea (and dare I say hope) would be for some Achzarits to be supplied to Ukraine.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3106 on: April 05, 2023, 07:17:41 AM »
Another idea (and dare I say hope) would be for some Achzarits to be supplied to Ukraine.

I assume there is some weird, local political reasons as to why Israel didn't start actively supporting Ukraine the moment RU revealed its new 'bestie' relationship with Iran  :P

I note that Nimba's Achzarit upgrade includes a 1,000 hp Perkins CV-12 Condor diesel. So, plenty of commonality there with UA's 'new' Challenger 2 MBTs.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3107 on: April 05, 2023, 07:19:14 AM »
Hmmm...would a Gepard turret fit on a BTR-4 (see below).  I suspect not but still...

Hard to say. I'd guess that, like most wheeled IFVs, the BTR-4 might be a smidge too narrow. The limitations would not just be on physically fitting the turret but also the effects on the suspension when firing.

I'm thinking that the future of SPAAG - in light of recent experience in Ukraine - is worth a fuller discussion. Maybe in the Engineering section?
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Offline raafif

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3108 on: April 05, 2023, 07:36:48 AM »
Israel is upgrading the BTR-60 for foreign sales (higher roof & new engine).  Maybe an upgrade for the BTR-80/90 series ?

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3109 on: April 05, 2023, 09:39:05 AM »
Israel is upgrading the BTR-60 for foreign sales (higher roof & new engine).  Maybe an upgrade for the BTR-80/90 series ?

That would depend on how many of what they've captured over the years. ;)
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Offline Sport25ing

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3110 on: April 05, 2023, 04:43:57 PM »
Could the British form a Ethiopian squadron for use in North Africa after the East African Campaign?

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3111 on: April 06, 2023, 09:58:47 AM »
Could the British form a Ethiopian squadron for use in North Africa after the East African Campaign?

I doubt it, based on limited skilled manpower. It took a fair bit of foreign involvement to get the RW Imperial Ethiopian Aviation established - Hubert Julian and John Robinson come to mind. Much of that support sprang from Pan-African nationalism and was openly hostile to European colonialists - the British included.

Israel is upgrading the BTR-60 for foreign sales (higher roof & new engine).  Maybe an upgrade for the BTR-80/90 series ?

Yup, Nimda seems to specialize in upgrade packages which involve re-engining.

Another idea (and dare I say hope) would be for some Achzarits to be supplied to Ukraine.

Zhorstokyy - The Israeli Achzarit in Ukraine

After the collapse of the sixth Netanyahu cabinet, the newly-elected Israeli government belatedly agreed to provided some of the Achzarit heavy APCs which Kyiv had been requesting. In ZSU service, the vehicles were dubbed Zhorstokyy - meaning cruel, brutal, ruthless, or ferocious. (The Hebrew name Achzarit had also meant 'cruel'.)

Most of the transferred Achzarit were early-model conversions. But a handful retained their IDF 'LIC' (Low Intensity Conflict) commander's cupolas intended for urban conflict. Those with these octagonal 'doghouse' cupolas also retained their original Rafael OWS fitted with 7.62 NATO FN MAGs. The rest of the ex-IDF Achzarit were re-armed with a range of Ukrainian-designed weapon stations.

Top: A newly delivered Zhorstokyy assigned to the 21st Mechanized Battalion. This 'doghouse' Zhorstokyy has been extensively covered with Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour 'bricks' (presumably because the rarer Nozh ERA was being reserved for fitment to ZSU Leopard 2 MBTs). No unit or recognition markings have yet been applied to this vehicle.

Bottom: A Zhorstokyy AH-30 (for 30 mm avtoharmata or autocannon) in full ZSU camouflage. Assigned to the 36th Mechanized Bn, the cannon-armed Zhorstokyy provided support for infantry from 58 (Hetman Ivan Vyhovskyi) OMPBr and the T-72M1R tanks of 16 OMpB.

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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3112 on: April 06, 2023, 10:37:36 AM »
The Ukrainians had the BMP-55 a T-55 based APC, so not far off...

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3113 on: April 07, 2023, 01:50:21 AM »
 :smiley:
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3114 on: April 07, 2023, 03:39:10 AM »
The Ukrainians had the BMP-55 a T-55 based APC, so not far off...

Yes. I liked Morozov's approach to the BMP-55 ... something akin to: "Hey, if we're putting a new transmission in this puppy anyway, why not just drive the hull backwards?" Good thinking Ihor!

Not sure that the Malyshev 5TDF was a good choice of engines but, I guess, Morozov wanted to keep everything local. By all accounts, the opposed-piston, 'suitcase' 5TDF was a really complex, parts-intensive bit of machinery and unreliable to boot.

Still, maybe Nimda should pinch Morozov's drive-backwards idea and offer a Perkins-engined 'HIFV-55"? There's no shortage of potential donor hulls  ;D

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3115 on: April 08, 2023, 06:40:09 AM »
Border Model's Apocalypse Tank as Single-Gunned

I'm mounting this here because I didn't want to barge in on Frank3k's build.
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10709.0

This is a rough and dirty retouch of one of Frank's build photos. The Apocalypse turret has been sectioned between the edges of the mantlet to eliminate one gun barrel. Aft of the commander's hatch, the original turret width is maintained.

Top: The original rotating missile tubes are kept (but now reduced from 6 per side down to two - mainly so that those launchers still tuck in behind the front turret armour. This version also retains the original loader's (?) hatch ... although, personally, I find this a very odd hatch for a 'modern' tank. Border's RWS has been eliminated.

Bottom: A slightly more extensive turret rebuild. Proportions are as above but the swiveling missile tubes are replaced by elevating launcher boxes. The unconvincing loader's hatch has been replaced with a slightly larger, flush-mounted hatch (still not all that convincing but, to me, better than the original). Part of the point of this is giving the loader access to the RWS - now repositioned forward of the hatches.

Thoughts?
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3116 on: April 08, 2023, 07:03:04 AM »
Your Model-Fu skillz will certainly find this conversion easy to deal with.  I definitely like the reduction in main guns even if an automatic loading system was incorporated for the twin gun arrangement it still takes up internal space so dropping down to one main gun seems to be the best choice. 
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3117 on: April 08, 2023, 10:07:23 AM »
Ask any tanker what they need most in a tank & the vastly most common answer is "Ammo! Ammo! And more ammo!", it's definitely not "More guns"*. 8)




[*: Sometimes it's "Bigger guns" but never more. ;) ]
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3118 on: April 09, 2023, 12:42:26 AM »
That's pretty close to what I was envisioning! The basket at the rear may change as well.

I'd like to do more extensive mods, but the plastic is pretty thick everywhere on this tank (it needs it, since it's all press fit)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3119 on: April 09, 2023, 08:33:44 AM »
Thanks folks.

Frank: I hadn't thought about the thicker plastic of a SnapTite-style model ...

Attached is a HAWK-totting Centurion (as per Gingie's request ...
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2618.msg207384#msg207384

I've done this without any sort of onboard targeting radar (assuming that missile-carriers would be slaved to a single radar system and launch control).

NB: The Centurion hull is based on an image of an ATV Club AVRE build.
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Offline Sport25ing

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3120 on: April 09, 2023, 07:00:12 PM »
"After the collapse of the sixth Netanyahu cabinet, the newly-elected Israeli government belatedly agreed to provided some of the Achzarit heavy APCs which Kyiv had been requesting. In ZSU service, the vehicles were dubbed Zhorstokyy - meaning cruel, brutal, ruthless, or ferocious. (The Hebrew name Achzarit had also meant 'cruel'.)"

A "idea" that up - the new pro-Ukrainian Israeli government, besides the heavy APC's (and other equipment), send two companies worth of the newest Merkava III's or oldest IV's, plus another company as spares - the meaning of sending the tanks: to see how they perform against a more modernized army, since most of their fighting involved guerrila forces; and since they are the best tanks for city fighting, compared to the Soviet-built/based and the rest of the Western-made vehicles, they are the main tank force for pushing into Donbass cities and other large urban areas.  :D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 07:45:14 PM by Sport25ing »

Offline Sport25ing

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3121 on: April 09, 2023, 10:30:05 PM »
Two new ideas for Ukraine: Since the US is giving both the Stryker and Bradley to Ukraine, image giving to them as well both the M1128 MGS Strykers and M6 Lineback ADVs.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3122 on: April 10, 2023, 05:30:38 AM »
Thanks folks.

Frank: I hadn't thought about the thicker plastic of a SnapTite-style model ...

Attached is a HAWK-totting Centurion (as per Gingie's request ...
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2618.msg207384#msg207384

I've done this without any sort of onboard targeting radar (assuming that missile-carriers would be slaved to a single radar system and launch control).

NB: The Centurion hull is based on an image of an ATV Club AVRE build.

WONDERFUL!!! I had a hunch the missile would be a big one after seeing a M727 triple launcher. Yes, the Radars would be in a separate trailer, as per the HAWK. Or, this could be what-iffed as a "Fire and Forget" version. Hmmm. Thanks so much!

Offline Gingie

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3123 on: April 10, 2023, 05:51:52 AM »
I wondered if repositioning the launcher pivot point futher to the rear and the launch rails as far back as not looking silly, would make the design seem more viable. VSHORAD missiles typically launched at only a few degrees elevation. But the HAWK is SHORAD and might be engaging higher altitude aircraft, and would probably need more elevation room. Or a launch rail like a Neva-125.




Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3124 on: April 10, 2023, 10:26:04 AM »
... Since the US is giving both the Stryker and Bradley to Ukraine, image giving to them as well both the M1128 MGS Strykers and M6 Lineback ADVs.

Reportedly the M1128 MGS sent to Ukraine have already seen action. Interestingly, the ZSU seems to be employing the M1128s as DFSVs in support of towed artillery.

I wondered if repositioning the launcher pivot point futher to the rear and the launch rails as far back as not looking silly...

Nice! I like your slimmed-down turret too (I may have been going a bit too 1950s!)  :smiley:

... Or a launch rail like a Neva-125.

Oh man! Had know that the Neva-125 existed, that's what you'd have got  ;D


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