Author Topic: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related  (Read 274809 times)

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #200 on: January 03, 2020, 11:30:08 PM »
I'd look at RW events post-WW2 for what would happen in the ELG (?) world.

Aerial battleships would become redundant but cruisers, destroyers & frigates would come into their own, & aircraft carriers would be the capital ships.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #201 on: January 04, 2020, 01:15:05 AM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2020, 06:01:12 PM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Sorry, totally missed this. Real life has this freaking habit of getting in the way of the good stuff :)
Interesting and I see where this could go although some sort of vertical stabiliser would be required I think.  I have a couple of things on the go but I think I will block out some ideas to see how they look and post them for feedback.
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #203 on: January 15, 2020, 06:45:52 PM »


By 1933 Germany had become a leading advocate of the fast unarmed medium bomber concept coining the term Schnellbomber (literally "fast bomber").  The concept was taken very seriously by the new chancellor and several designs from notable manufacturers such as Heinkel, Dornier and Junkers were to enter service over the next five years.

The speed advantage enjoyed over interceptors of the day was, in part, achieved by having no defensive armament. The weight saving of having no heavy calibre guns, ammunition and gunner(s) went a long way to keeping the bombers cruising speed in excess of that of the contemporary fighter aircraft. However, the major contributing factor to the multi-engine aircrafts success was the room for additional lift and weight compensation equipment of the layout.

This was exploited to the full at Junkers Flugzeug- und Motorenwerke, where the aero engine division had made a breakthrough in very high lift/weight power units. The Jumo Elektrisch 211 power cell gave not just extra electrical generation and thrust but made use of compact additional secondary T-Coil windings solely to boost the electrical field on mass (EFM) effect.

The Woten power cell, as it was christened, was capable of generating very high voltages and Junkers went ahead with a 4 engine design which would have given Germany a first class strategic bomber from the outset of World War two. However, such was the belief in fast medium bombers in a tactical role amongst the higher powers in Germany that the 4 engine design was cancelled.

Junkers own design, The JU 885 was, after some initial teething problems perhaps the best of Germany’s Schnellbomber designs. The A  series certainly was fast and unarmed but it was found by the late 1930’s that bomber interceptor aircraft such as the British Hawker Hound and later the Supermarine Spectre, could easily intercept the Schnellbomber especially when carrying a war load.

Junkers wrung even more power out of the Woten developing a more powerful version called the “Thor” which unfortunately was excessively fuel hungry at its best energy output range and prone to early coil burn out. However, there was a use for such a power plant.

EFM power units have a ground effect characteristic similar to that of conventional lifting surfaces only coming into effect at the high power outputs a pilot would use to become airborne or use in a typical “float” touch down. 
A modified JU885 with prototype Thor units was test flown by KG 54, a unit that had specialised in low flying operations, to see if the Thor units additional power could be of use. The substantial EFM of the Thor units made it almost impossible to “sink” the aircraft below a certain height. You could of course fly the aircraft into the ground deliberately but easing down into the float felt like you were riding on the back of a flatbed lorry.

A small production batch of JU885 known as the JU885z were delivered to KG54 for low level operation development for which they were highly successful. KG54 carried out many daring early war raids including attacks on the British radio detection masts which thankfully were never followed up.

The major tactic of KG54 was to approach the target at high speed and very low level rising to bombing level some 20 miles out from the target.  By reducing the 8000lb maximum internal bomb load by 25%  the JU885z had an additional reserve of energy that could be employed on the final climb to bomb height which meant that the aircraft climbed like a lift seemingly coming out of nowhere, hitting the target and then diving back to hedge hopping height for home.

Although Britain’s advanced use of radio detection was unknown to the Germans at this stage of the war, KG54 was in actual fact unable to be seen by it owing to the specialist low level intruder raids it carried out. Thankfully, Britain had a secondary and somewhat much less technical warning system known as the observer Corp who were extremely good at their job. Once the hedge hopping technique was anticipated the Observer Corp began the hunt and the Hounds were let loose.

Footnote
There was in actual fact a Junkers design designated the JU85 with a twin fin tail around the same time as the more famous JU88 was under development but it was scrapped in favour of the 88. My JU885 has a bit of Heinkel and Dornier as well as Junkers along with a sizeable amount of bull.

Footnote 2
Some of the more sadder, sorry, eagle eyed among you will notice that the above image has a three bladed prop and the Thor unit, if you looked at it, has  four.
This is because the image above is of a KG54 aircraft fitted with the older Woten power unit.
I would get on well as a politician with truth adjustments like that ;)



Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #204 on: January 15, 2020, 09:21:57 PM »
Ni-ice! 8)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #205 on: January 16, 2020, 01:06:28 AM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Sorry, totally missed this. Real life has this freaking habit of getting in the way of the good stuff :)
Real life is occasionally overrated, but usually wins out in the end! :-)

Quote
Interesting and I see where this could go although some sort of vertical stabiliser would be required I think.
Oh it would absolutely need a vertical stab, but I was thinking that the lift coils out on the end of the winglets would extend back into twin booms to provide the tail surfaces.

Something like this:

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #206 on: January 16, 2020, 02:39:50 AM »
More images please
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #207 on: January 16, 2020, 02:44:21 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2020, 02:52:42 AM »
Something like this:

 :smiley:

Yeah, I could work with this but I do have a habit of going off towards the borders of daft city sometimes so beware.
I need to finish this 12.8CM Flak thing I'm struggling with then I'll block out something
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2020, 03:10:23 AM »
More images please


I have nothing really finished as I only built to have something for the Hound to shoot at :)
There is this pre weathered texture test render:


...and this panels bump map test:

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Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2020, 03:53:40 AM »
Great stuff  :smiley:  And love seeing your in-progress texture tests  :-*
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Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2020, 08:44:17 AM »
tankmodeler's boom layout severely restricts the functional field of fire of the ball turret; I'd have the booms either shorter or projecting forward, or the fuselage longer, or a bit of all three. ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2020, 08:47:37 AM »
CG modelling (especially 3D) is a mystical art, to me, but damn that's good! :D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2020, 09:44:26 PM »
Great stuff  :smiley:  And love seeing your in-progress texture tests  :-*

Thanks.
To be honest I was going to show more WIP as I posted along the way but thought it might be a boring to most.
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2020, 09:55:47 PM »
CG modelling (especially 3D) is a mystical art, to me, but damn that's good! :D

Its not so much a mystery as it is a tough learning curve as far as most software is concerned - was fro me anyway.
There is usually more than one way of approaching something and knowing your toolset and what they all do is the first step. After that its like playing an instrument or some kind of sport - practice practice and practice some more and it all comes together.

I love it except for one aspect which I need to do very often. UV mapping or basically unwrapping the model so as it can be viewed in 2D space in an ap like photshop for texture mapping, bump/displacement mapping, specular map etc etc. I love what you can do when its done but I would rather eat my own ear wax than start a new UV session.

I don't always have to UV map though as I can use procedural texturing techniques and get round the need for a UV map but camo schemes and the like need a UV map. Something like the Minotaur engine was all procedural.

... sorry, gone on a bit there :)

Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2020, 10:02:17 PM »
tankmodeler's boom layout severely restricts the functional field of fire of the ball turret; I'd have the booms either shorter or projecting forward, or the fuselage longer, or a bit of all three. ;)

Yes I thought so too re the field of fire.
Its looking a bit P551 as well but I did wonder about perhaps having the payload in deeper nacelles perhaps. I have some other ideas too but it may look a lot Less Avenger-ish which might be a shame now I think about it.
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Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2020, 10:11:52 PM »
I was thinking if you took off about 20-25% of the nacelle length & pushed them forward, so the fronts lined up with the front of the engine cowling, on angled winglets, so you got a V-shaped nacelle-fuselage-nacelle form, it could look pretty funky & give the appropriate cover-yer-arse field of fire.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2020, 10:22:24 PM »
"... the appropriate cover-yer-arse field of fire"

Like that :)
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Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #218 on: January 16, 2020, 11:10:51 PM »
In the normal Avenger, the tail sits directly aft of the turret restricting the field of fire dead aft, where one's arse normally is...  :D

The tail will always restrict fire, but in this case I chose to provide explicit cover to the rear, above and below with the rear turret. There is precedent for this as the WWII BV138 had two turrets mounted between two booms and the lower rear turret had the horizontal stab to deal with as well. I've moved all that outboard of the booms.

Moving the lift nacelles forward is fine, but you need to keep the tail aft to actually provide the /righting/turning moment that is what it's used for. Move them forward and they get exponentially bigger. You also have to manage the weight balance fore and aft. You can't have all the mass up forward.

Lastly, angling the booms outwards may look interesting, but would add massively to the drag as the aircraft flew and really degrade not just speed, but handling, especially at low speeds which is where a torpedo bomber spends a lot of time. It would also make carrier landings rather more "sporty".  ???

Paul

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #219 on: January 17, 2020, 07:43:57 AM »
Lastly, angling the booms outwards may look interesting, but would add massively to the drag as the aircraft flew and really degrade not just speed, but handling, especially at low speeds which is where a torpedo bomber spends a lot of time. It would also make carrier landings rather more "sporty".  ???

Paul

Nah, mate, I wasn't talking about angling the booms but, rather, the winglets so you got a boom\fuselage/boom arrangement (with \ & / representing the winglets).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 07:45:34 AM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #220 on: January 17, 2020, 09:27:02 AM »
Nah, mate, I wasn't talking about angling the booms but, rather, the winglets so you got a boom\fuselage/boom arrangement (with \ & / representing the winglets).
Ahhh! Cranking the winglets out to the nacelles! Gotcha!

But if you did this:
boom/fuselage\boom
The turret would have a better field of fire above the horizon, I think. And, during the bomb run most interceptors would be above the local horizon

And the vertical stabiliser could be reduced if the horizontal stabiliser had a significant dihedral to replace some of the lost vertical surface.

stab/boom     Fuselage     boom\stab

If you see what I'm getting at?

Paul
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:34:53 AM by tankmodeler »

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #221 on: January 17, 2020, 10:18:37 AM »
Yup. :smiley:

You could also improve the field of fire by having all the stab's & winglets angled, thusly;
     
>o/O\o<

(fore/aft view)

However, unlike RW, where torpedo planes attack at deck height, which made it easier to defend themselves against fighters & cover their blind spots by yawing the tail from side to side, that's not really possible when attacking aerial warships because they're not floating in the water, so you have to defend below the horizon.

'Tis a conundrum! :-\
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #222 on: January 17, 2020, 11:18:43 AM »
... To be honest I was going to show more WIP as I posted along the way but thought it might be a boring to most.

To tell the truth, I have absolutely no clue how you achieve the results that you do! However, seeing your in-progress shots allows me the delusion of such knowledgeability  ;)

15 Aug 2025: "We are now half-stupid! Soon we shall be completely stupid!"

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #223 on: January 17, 2020, 08:24:31 PM »
To tell the truth, I have absolutely no clue how you achieve the results that you do! However, seeing your in-progress shots allows me the delusion of such knowledgeability  ;)


Just about everything starts with basic primitive shapes: cube, sphere, cylinder. You have basic tools for cutting, bevelling and shaping that can be used with modifiers to help with more complex operations to give complicated surfaces.

I have no images of the very beginning of any model but I have a few early ones that are just coming out of the block out stage:



I mentioned UV mapping previously and below you can see a map with its texture along with how things can go wrong with distortion.



The distortion is hi lighted in the above by the wavy bump mapped panel.

Bump maps and displacement maps help reduce modelling all panelling and rivet details and stuff although I do chop my models up a great deal more nowadays as it helps the modelling process.



A bump map is a software/render trick and does not really effect the mesh. Its a black and white image where white is zero and black is the depth or indent determined by how much you dial into the app. The above is set at about 2mm depth if I remember correctly. You can reverse the map so that the detail is raised and the maps can be mixed as I did on the Hound to represent panels and raised rivets.

I hope this is ok posting this here.


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Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #224 on: January 17, 2020, 10:28:42 PM »
However, unlike RW, where torpedo planes attack at deck height, which made it easier to defend themselves against fighters & cover their blind spots by yawing the tail from side to side, that's not really possible when attacking aerial warships because they're not floating in the water, so you have to defend below the horizon.
Yeah, that earlier discussion on how one might employ a torpedo-like weapon in this universe puts it out there. With the raised fuselage and lower tail structure, coupled with the aft turret and the ventral tunnel position (like the Avenger actually had) you do get quite good coverage to the sides and most of the aft cone. You really can't cover the sides below the aircraft centreline, though and, realistically, with a single-engined type it's not going to be possible to provide full coverage.

To provide all-round defensive coverage you need a multi-engined and much larger type, like a Betty or He-111, to allow for the extra gun positions. These aircraft are also large enough that you could expect them to carry two torpedoes, thus being individually more effective than the single-engined type. The problem, just like the RW, is the inability to operate them off carriers. So a smaller payload and smaller defensive capabilities are a result of not being able to manage multi-engined types on carriers.

Or, at least that's how my reasoning goes at the moment...

Paul