Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 17, 2014, 06:00:22 PM
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M41 Walker ''Bulldog'' Light Tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M41_Walker_Bulldog)
Click on html or image to view Wikipedia article on the M41 light tank.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/M41-walker-bulldog-tank.jpg/300px-M41-walker-bulldog-tank.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M41_Walker_Bulldog)
Quite surprised that we have not had a topic on the M41 Walker light tank before now. Considering how many nations around the world have been using this particular vehicle for a number of years with some still active though the majority by now are retired from service and have been scrapped, turned into artificial reefs, or monuments.
I have often wondered if the M41 could handle the 17pdr in lieu of the 76mm gun it was manufactured with. A nice subtle what if by simply changing the gun tube out would certainly be fun.
Other ideas for a what if M41 would be to arm it with a 105mm howitzer instead of the 76mm gun.
Another option would be to use a 57mm gun instead of the 76mm?
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Add side skirts and a more slab-sided turret ala' the M1 and you could have a light/airmobile tank to rival the Sheridan in use with the XVIII Airborne Corps.
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Some bolt on ceramic armor or explosive panels and some slat armor. Add some boxes around the turret to change its shape. It would make some fun whiffing as the Tamiya kit is pretty cheap.
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Always liked the "feel" of the M-41, irrespective of it's capabilities and limitations. It has a balanced, poised feel to it, much like the Chaffee before it. :)
I'd think a 90mm gun would be high on the shopping list (some countries have done it). If the Panhard ERC-90 armoured car can take the GIAT TS-90 high-velocity weapon, then I can't see the M-41 having a problem.
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One of my pet peeves with the M41 is the commanders cupola. It seems to be fixed and does not rotate, I want to see if a different cupola will fit where the current cupola resides. While the AFV Club and Skybow M41 kits both had separate parts for the cupola and a rather round hole where it fits, the Tamiya has it molded to th turret. Still it would be interesting to see if something different could be mounted in that same location.
Add side skirts and a more slab-sided turret ala' the M1 and you could have a light/airmobile tank to rival the Sheridan in use with the XVIII Airborne Corps.
Could not agree more with you on that John. A completely different turret with a bit more bustle and storage would go a long ways towards making it look more purposeful. Maybe take a Leopard 1A4 turret and see if that will fit.
The M41 definitely needs a diesel engine to give it better range and less of a fire hazard for the crew.
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Always liked the "feel" of the M-41, irrespective of it's capabilities and limitations. It has a balanced, poised feel to it, much like the Chaffee before it. :)
I'd think a 90mm gun would be high on the shopping list (some countries have done it). If the Panhard ERC-90 armoured car can take the GIAT TS-90 high-velocity weapon, then I can't see the M-41 having a problem.
British Commonwealth versions with 17pdr updated to 20pdr. A 57mm Molins gun version AT originally but evolving into a SPAAG with a new high elevation mount. 4.5 and 5.5" SPGs as well.
:)
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How about a Stug type with the 90mm gun?
For a different cupola steal one from an M-48.
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Had a very basic 1/35 M-41 kit when I was in primary school, can't remember the make but know I was so jealous of a friendwhohad the Tamiya kit with its opening hatches. M-41is a very tankie looking tank (as I agree the M-24 is as well) that just demands to be whiffed into all sorts of senerios and time frames.
I understand the reality behind MBTs and why the old light, medium, heavy tanks have gone by the way, but ther is just something about a fast light tank with a big gun isnt there? 8)
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The 76mm M32 was no slouch and had equal or better (depending on round fired) to the 17 Pdr.
I don't think there would be sufficient room in an M41 turret to put a 17 Pdr, anyway. I seem to remember the Brazilians sold a bunch of second-hand M41's they'd upgraded to Uragauy which they had upgraded to have Mecar 90mm guns and new engines. But remember, the low-pressure guns have substantially lower MV compared to conventional guns and rely on HEAT for their armour penetration whereas the M32 relied on APDS and AP for it's armour penetration.
As to adding armour, the M41 is a light tank. It's maximum armour is only about 75mm (and that's on it's mantlet). You'll never able to add sufficient to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. Better to keep it to it's original role, as a reconnaissance vehicle, rather than trying to turn it into an MBT. Although, the M41 was able to take on and kill T-54/55/59 MBTs in Laos and Vietnam quite successfully when it managed to get the drop on them. Skirts and some ceramic armour perhaps to improve chances of survival but don't assume it's going to go head-to-head with an MBT and survive.
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How about a Stug type with the 90mm gun?
For a different cupola steal one from an M-48.
Even better would be to avoid the cramped space of the cupola and go with the cupola from an M113 with the ACAV gun shield surrounding it. That gives the commander a little more flexibility with the machine gun be it a .30 or .50 weapon it can be traversed and elevated without having to hand crank the cupola around to engage the target. But something more practical like the Urdan style cupola that was based on the original commanders cupola on the M48 and M103 but with the addition of a hatch cover that could be elevated to allow viewing whilst still under armor protection might be a better way to go.
If you have the spare parts or a kit that you want to dispose of you could also try to adapt the cupola from the M1 Abrams to the M41. Certainly something to consider if you can afford it :)
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How about a Stug type with the 90mm gun?
For a different cupola steal one from an M-48.
:)
Yes, perfect, I love casemate assault guns and tank destroyers.
Some thoughts on that:
90mm, 105mm, 120mm or 20pdr casemate gun,
.50 CAL M-48 or M-60 cupola or .30, .50 Cadillac Guage turret, 20mm turret / cupola for self defense,
2", 3", 60mm, or 81mm mortar for self defence / indirect fire support.
Fragmentation as well as smoke grenade launchers for self defense.
Basically a multi role infantry support vehicle covering direct fire support, indirect fire support, SFMG, etc.
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How about an M41 armed with the 105mm howitzer? Fire support and obstacle reduction plus you could give it a bulldozer blade to move dirt and debris.
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How about an M41 armed with the 105mm howitzer? Fire support and obstacle reduction plus you could give it a bulldozer blade to move dirt and debris.
Need a new gearbox and transmission and more than likely a more powerful engine. Why you'd use a light tank for such a task I'm not sure. Generally if carrying out reconnaissance you go round, not try and push your way through blockages. Anyway, any barricade would be covered with sufficient firepower to stop any attempt to clear the road block.
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How about an M41 armed with the 105mm howitzer? Fire support and obstacle reduction plus you could give it a bulldozer blade to move dirt and debris.
Need a new gearbox and transmission and more than likely a more powerful engine. Why you'd use a light tank for such a task I'm not sure. Generally if carrying out reconnaissance you go round, not try and push your way through blockages. Anyway, any barricade would be covered with sufficient firepower to stop any attempt to clear the road block.
Not saying it would be the ideal tool for the job but in a role of providing fire support for the infantry by direct/indirect fire, equipped with a bulldozer blade (there was a blade kit for the M41 btw) and the ability of the 105H to reduce obstacles by direct fire with a much larger shell that did not rely on higher muzzle velocities it would certainly look convincing as a model and a what if.
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How about this?
Replace the 76mm gun with the Israeli hypervelocity 60mm gun. Add twin TOW launchers to each side of the bustle. Add ceramic armour to hull front and turret sides. Alternatively, add space armour boxes to the turret, to give it a square, angular shape.
Create a tank destroyer variant similar to the Spanish(?) one which used the M901 "Hammerhead" turret in place of the gun turret.
Create a tank destroyer variant with a proper elevating mast, armed with one of the larger ATGMs like HOT or Swingfire.
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Not saying it would be the ideal tool for the job but in a role of providing fire support for the infantry by direct/indirect fire, equipped with a bulldozer blade (there was a blade kit for the M41 btw) and the ability of the 105H to reduce obstacles by direct fire with a much larger shell that did not rely on higher muzzle velocities it would certainly look convincing as a model and a what if.
Is there enough room for the same 152mm gun-launcher on the Sheridan (or maybe a version modified with bore evacuator)?
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Not saying it would be the ideal tool for the job but in a role of providing fire support for the infantry by direct/indirect fire, equipped with a bulldozer blade (there was a blade kit for the M41 btw) and the ability of the 105H to reduce obstacles by direct fire with a much larger shell that did not rely on higher muzzle velocities it would certainly look convincing as a model and a what if.
Is there enough room for the same 152mm gun-launcher on the Sheridan (or maybe a version modified with bore evacuator)?
You are aware how alarming firing conventional rounds out of the 152mm gun/missile launcher was in the Sheridan? It used to leap over a metre backwards with the brakes locked hard on, firing forewards and when they tested it downunder they were concerned that when firing athwartships it would capsize! While the M41 was some 8 tons heaver, I suspect the effects would have been similar. The 152mm was simple too big for a light tank. Anyway, the Shillelagh system was very fragile and prone to loads of problems, including inaccuracy. There are finite limits as to what you can put into a lightweight chassis, you realise?
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How about an Aussie M-41 used & modified by the Royal Australian Marines in Vietnam?
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4175.15 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4175.15)
(http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq311/GPlachy/RAMs%20M41A1/DSCN2214_zps70fe9da9.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
Guy
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Don't forget that with modern ammunition the 90mm and even the 76mm would be far more effective.
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Built one with a German 88m.....I'll look it out.
The M41's a favourite tank of mine.
>:D
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How about an Aussie M-41 used & modified by the Royal Australian Marines in Vietnam?
Guy, it was because of your WIP M41 RAM that I discovered we had no discussion topic for the M41 so I blame you :)
Built one with a German 88m.....I'll look it out.The M41's a favourite tank of mine.
>:D
Which Tiger did you source your gun tube from? One is substantially longer than the other and the complete rounds are much different in size too.
Wikipedia - 8.8 cm /L56 KwK 36 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36) for the Tiger I.
Wikipedia - 8.8 cm /L71KwK 43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_43) for the Tiger II.
Don't forget that with modern ammunition the 90mm and even the 76mm would be far more effective.
Quite true about the improvements in ammunition performance. Especially with the armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) rounds that were developed for the 76mm and other tank guns. Addition ammunition types also help (eg. Smoke, HEAT, WP, Canister, and HE) in making it the 76mm a mufti-purpose weapon system.
Is there enough room for the same 152mm gun-launcher on the Sheridan (or maybe a version modified with bore evacuator)?
There is an image on the interweb showing what appears to be a very early M551 turret that is mounted on an M41 hull and it is described as "the T49 light tank"(click link to view image). (http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/uFxuJdS.jpg) More on the T49 at this link: T49 Light Tank – US upcoming tier 8 (http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/02/18/t49-light-tank-us-upcoming-tier-8/) (Warning! This appears to be a WoT oriented blog.) The image shows the Sheridan turret with gun mounted on the M41 hull but major components are missing such as the commanders cupola and a host of other necessary things that would indicate a potentially functional combat vehicle instead of a test vehicle. Seeing that turret mounted on the M41 hull certainly makes you wonder how the M41 would have fared with the 152mm gun when it was actually fired with a conventional high explosive or HEAT round? The M13 (MGM-51) Shillelagh guided missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-51_Shillelagh) did not require as much propellant to launch from the gun/missile launcher so recoil was much less in comparison to the standard 152mm ammunition types. The image I linked to above from the blog has the following description with that image: " XM551 (prototype Sheridan) turret mounted on a M41 chassis. Very little is known about it other than in July 1962, XM551 test bed turret was mounted on the M41 chassis for the evaluation of firepower and tests. These tests took place in Aberdeen [Proving Ground, MD] – they started on 23.8.1962, with 590 rounds being fired from the 152mm gun-launcher." So it appears that the 152mm gun/missile launcher system would work on the M41 and as much as I dislike the shape of the M41 turret, I absolutely hate the shape of the M551 turret. Personal preferences and likes aside, it looks like it was tested, it worked and that was it. So if you want to mate Sheridan turret to M41 hull I see no reason aside from the aesthetics to not do so.
Other vehicles based on the M41 components that I am aware of are the M42 'Duster' twin 40mm SPAAG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M42_Duster) and the M8 high speed tractor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8_Tractor) which was used as the prime mover for a number of then in service large caliber artillery pieces (155mm Gun and 8.0" howitzer). Spain did develop M41E Cazador as an anti-tank guided missile carrier based on a modified M41 hull (http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-whiskey/whiskey/walker-bulldog_series/m41e/m41e.html) that carried the Emerson TOW turret (same system used on the M901 ITV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M901_ITV))
***update***
Missed the following M41 related vehicles:
JED Site - M44 Self-propelled 155mm Howitzer (http://www.jedsite.info/artillery-mike/mike-number-us/m044_series/m44-series.html)
Wikipedia - M44 Self-Propelled 155mm Howitzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M44_Self_Propelled_Howitzer)
JED Site - M52 Self-propelled 105mm Howitzer (http://www.jedsite.info/artillery-mike/mike-number-us/m052_series/m52-series.html)
Wikipedia - M75 Armored Personnel Carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_armored_personnel_carrier)
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This is the gun I'd like to see on it:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/ERC-90_Sagaie_008_FR.JPG/800px-ERC-90_Sagaie_008_FR.JPG)
90mm GIAT F4, who's APFSDS round is claimed to be able to penetrate the glacis of a baseline T-72 at 2000m. If that 8.5 tonne armoured car can carry it in it's 2-man turret, I see no reason why the 23.5 ton M-41 couldn't fit it in it's 3-man turret.
More info: http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3586.html (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3586.html)
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This is the gun I'd like to see on it:
([url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/ERC-90_Sagaie_008_FR.JPG/800px-ERC-90_Sagaie_008_FR.JPG[/url])
90mm GIAT F4, who's APFSDS round is claimed to be able to penetrate the glacis of a baseline T-72 at 2000m. If that 8.5 tonne armoured car can carry it in it's 2-man turret, I see no reason why the 23.5 ton M-41 couldn't fit it in it's 3-man turret.
More info: [url]http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3586.html[/url] ([url]http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3586.html[/url])
See no reason why it could not be since Cadillac Gage mounted their Stingray turret armed with the M68/L7 105mm gun fitted with a muzzle break (http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z41/YourLordandConqueror_2007/Bulldog-Stingray_zps55a7f1d9.png) to reduce recoil forces on the M41 hull and named it the M41 "Bulldog Stingray."
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I like the look of the M41E Cazador. I imagine a built up hull like that for carrying a Stug type gun. Another option is an armored vehicle for recovery or combat engineers. Think of the Israeli conversions of Centurions and T-54s.
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A subtle whiff: in the 1960s Argentina almost acquired M41s...they went on to develop the TAM tank instead.
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I like the look of the M41E Cazador. I imagine a built up hull like that for carrying a Stug type gun. Another option is an armored vehicle for recovery or combat engineers. Think of the Israeli conversions of Centurions and T-54s.
M41 with the M8 MGS turret sounds attractive at the moment. Also any kind of turret swap appeals to me and a candidate for that swap could be the Italian Centauro turret. I did something like that with SketchUp 3D modeling a while back but started with an M551 Sheridan and mated a Centurao turret to the Sheridan hull. The engine deck was also extended to suggest improvements in the engine and drive train and lose that angled back deck. It was a great exercise in learning how to mix and match 3D model components so it was not all bad.
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I was so tempted to stop in HL and buy one on the way home today!
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I have almost bought an M-41 on so many occasions its not funny. I tend to buy to themes, usually real or alt Aust ones and the M-41 has never fit but still it just looks tankie, looks right, just want to buy and build it out of the box.
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I was so tempted to stop in HL and buy one on the way home today!
I did. 40% off. Was just looking through the contents and it should make for a quick build...except for the completely new turret (I've been playing in Sketch Up with some designs) side skirts and re-positioning of the driver's hatch to the centerline. This should be fun!
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I was so tempted to stop in HL and buy one on the way home today!
I did. 40% off. Was just looking through the contents and it should make for a quick build...except for the completely new turret (I've been playing in Sketch Up with some designs) side skirts and re-positioning of the driver's hatch to the centerline. This should be fun!
SketchUp? :)
I wonder if you could actually move the engine/transmission drive train up to the front of the vehicle and then move the turret to the rear of the hull and have a rear access door? Might be better to just start with something actually built that way from the start now that I dwell on the idea a bit. Hmmmm, M41 turret mounted on a Marder hull (think Argentine TAM). AMX-13 turret on an M41 hull (it worked for the M24 Chaffee). Plenty of possibilities.
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Austrian Kurassier SK-105?
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AMX-13 turret on an M41 hull...I like! :)
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Mmm.....just a thought a multi gun, multi calibre AMX-13 turret on a M-41 hull. 75mm or 90mm HV AT gun, 105mm support gun and a 20-30mm auto-cannon.
Just cos!
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How about using an M41 as a proper, fully-enclosed SPAAG mounting for the 20mm Vulcan instead of the M163? Big, squared-off turret like a ZSU-23-4 but with the Vulcan instead of the quad 23mm, and a radar/EO tracker on the back? The concession to lightness could be that the search radar lives on another vehicle (which is a good idea anyway).
If you don't fancy the Vulcan, you could always go for twin 30mm: after all, France had the DCA SPAAG turret which was fitted to both the AMX-13 and AMX-30 chassis. Heller have kitted both in 1/35th.....
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There's always a remodel of the M42 duster with its twin 40mm Bofors.
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There's always a remodel of the M42 duster with its twin 40mm Bofors.
I didn't want to make the calibre too big or you end up with a turret that's too big for the M41 hull. Remember, the Sgt.York turret, which is the only fully-enclosed, radar-equipped twin 40mm turret I can think of, was almost too big for the M48..... The French only got twin 30mm onto the AMX-13 DCA because the turret only had search radar but no tracking radar, just optical fire control.
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IIRC part of the problem with the Sgt York was the ammo feed system. It tried to be able to switch between different types of ammo which I'm sure lead to the larger turret to make space for all that extra machinery. If that were simplified it could make for a smaller turret. Let me check on that.
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IIRC part of the problem with the Sgt York was the ammo feed system. It tried to be able to switch between different types of ammo which I'm sure lead to the larger turret to make space for all that extra machinery. If that were simplified it could make for a smaller turret. Let me check on that.
That wasn't much of a problem, per se. Switching from one feed to the other would have consisted of a small amount of machinery. The problem was storing sufficient quantities of the difference types of ammunition. HE or AP (in various incarnations). The Bofors 40mm round is quite large. Now, if they'd changed over to a telescoped round they could have saved considerable volume but decided to go with standard rounds instead. The other problem was the feed system. 'Cause they'd gone for a continious, mechanical feed over the four round clips, you need quite a bit of space for that as well.
Even so, the Sgt. York wasn't too big for an SPAA IMHO. It was too big for the standard M48 hull, which was afterall, too slow to keep up with the M1s, anyway. Putting it on the M48 was just another nail in it's coffin.
What they really needed was a 76mm Otomatic gun system. That could reach out and touch those pesky hovering helicopters with their long range AT missiles, whereas a 40mm couldn't.
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Having now read the detailed Wikipedia article, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M247_Sergeant_York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M247_Sergeant_York)) it seems the ammo loading system was one of the Sgt York components that actually worked. Its death nell was the fact that the radar couldn't find the things it was supposed to shoot at. The fact that it was mounted on a 30 year old tank hull surely didn't help matters.
Back in whiff world, I was thinking of something sporting misslle boxes and some butt kicking guns would be cool.
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The recent number of M-41 builds and great ideas for whiffing has set quite a few gears turning in my musty, rusty, and dusty brain. I broke down and bought the Tamiya kit at HL today. If you go to buy anything there check for their internet coupons. They had one for 40% off any one item. Score!! $18.00 kit for $11.46.
I want to try a new engine deck, target acquisition system for TC and gunner, the TUSK system from the M-1 and maybe a new 90mm gun. If not the 90mm gun then a Bradley style box TOW launcher. Add on armor and lots of trash bins too. No promises as to when.
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The recent number of M-41 builds and great ideas for whiffing has set quite a few gears turning in my musty, rusty, and dusty brain. I broke down and bought the Tamiya kit at HL today. If you go to buy anything there check for their internet coupons. They had one for 40% off any one item. Score!! $18.00 kit for $11.46.
I want to try a new engine deck, target acquisition system for TC and gunner, the TUSK system from the M-1 and maybe a new 90mm gun. If not the 90mm gun then a Bradley style box TOW launcher. Add on armor and lots of trash bins too. No promises as to when.
The new engine deck is great fun to figure out. I started out originally looking at the M50 and M51 Sherman engine deck and realized it was close but just not working. My next attempt will focus on the engine decks from several Russian tanks in the stash since the engine decks on most of the modern Russian tanks represent a transversely mounted engine it might actually work out in width and length. If that fails then it is back to sheet plastic :)
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I fondling the new plastic last night thinking about what to do with the same problem. I was thinking of scale-o-rama an M-60 or M-48 engine deck if I can find one. Otherwise I was thinking of scratching something similar and casting some extra louvers from the M-41 deck to use as air inlet and exhaust ports. I'll be checking Prime Portal and any other references I can find. There is a real world M-48 on display about 20 miles from my house. I should be able to make up an excuse to head out that way.
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I fondling the new plastic last night thinking about what to do with the same problem. I was thinking of scale-o-rama an M-60 or M-48 engine deck if I can find one. Otherwise I was thinking of scratching something similar and casting some extra louvers from the M-41 deck to use as air inlet and exhaust ports. I'll be checking Prime Portal and any other references I can find. There is a real world M-48 on display about 20 miles from my house. I should be able to make up an excuse to head out that way.
Your suggestion to use the M48/M60 grill work at the rear is a great idea. I had not considered that option myself. Will have to check and see what it looks like and how much needs to be trimmed off the edges. Another source for parts might be the Leopard I hull with the side mounted exhaust vents. Finding a 1:48th scale Leopard, M48, M60, Challenger, or M1 Abrams might help too in finding a suitably shaped and right sized part or parts to come up with something plausible.
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How about using an M41 as a proper, fully-enclosed SPAAG mounting for the 20mm Vulcan instead of the M163? Big, squared-off turret like a ZSU-23-4 but with the Vulcan instead of the quad 23mm, and a radar/EO tracker on the back? The concession to lightness could be that the search radar lives on another vehicle (which is a good idea anyway).
Been thinking about this for a bit & I thought "What about a towed search radar unit?"
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Anyone have an idea of the diameter of the bolt like attachments for add on armor as seen on Stryker and other vehicles?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jframe.html#http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/staticstryker_army2004-12-14.jpg (http://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jframe.html#http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/staticstryker_army2004-12-14.jpg)|||
Grantline has bolt heads for railroad scenery that would work.
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How about using an M41 as a proper, fully-enclosed SPAAG mounting for the 20mm Vulcan instead of the M163? Big, squared-off turret like a ZSU-23-4 but with the Vulcan instead of the quad 23mm, and a radar/EO tracker on the back? The concession to lightness could be that the search radar lives on another vehicle (which is a good idea anyway).
Been thinking about this for a bit & I thought "What about a towed search radar unit?"
Trailers and tanks don't mix very well. The driver usually can't see the thing and in an emergency can reverse right over it without noticing. The British experience with various supply trailers in WWII and after was such that they preferred to bolt a big armoured fuel tank on the back of the Centurion rather than persist with the mono-trailer they'd developed to extend it's range.
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Fair enough.
My idea was a fairly large trailer with a search radar unit which would be dropped off & erected on a hill top, with the M41 20mm SPAAG moving on to set up in a nearby location as part of a defensive net around a SPArty / HQ area.
Guess it would be just as easy to use a 2nd vehicle for the radar unit (another M41?).
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Put the radar on either an APC (if it's expected to operate well forward) or a soft-skin if you believe it will be operating well to the rear. There wouldn't be enough room in an M41 for the electronics, the operators and the radar antenna. You'd need to add a big, boxy superstructure and so you might as well go with a vehicle that already has that.
I'd recommend the M577 ACV as a good starting point. Alternatively, perhaps the M548 TLC. Then you have your choice of trucks, if you'd prefer to go down that route. Remember, radars by their very nature don't need to be right up with your forward troops, so a truck might be adequate.
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A bit of armour might be nice, given the number of HARM's floating around during/just before bombing missions, though. ;)
How about a M41 undergoing a major rebuild (like the Israelis do) with an armoured box superstructure, a smaller (more) modern engine fitted off to one side, layout reversed (so that it is, essentially, going backwards), with the driver seated (at least partially) beside the engine? ???
You could even do something similar for the SPAAG, with a double hatch at the (new) rear to make reloading easier.
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Depends on what period you're talking about. When 20mm were effective (they aren't any more), there weren't that many ARMs around, so armour wasn't really required. Today, yes, you need armour but even so, lots of Search Radars are still mounted on soft-skin vehicles. I was just looking at picture of the new Swedish Giraffe 4 radar family and nearly all are mounted on unarmoured vehicles.
(http://feed.ne.cision.com/wpyfs/00/00/00/00/00/25/C7/51/ae718f365f8e53b2_800x800ar.jpg)
It all depends on the range of the radar, I think. Tactical radars need armour, they're used relatively close to the FEOT (Forward Edge Own Troops). An area which might be subject to air attack, as well as longish range artillery. Medium radars are further back, they are less likely to be attacked by artillery and ARMs. Theatre radars are even further back. In each case, they rely on their radars to do the detecting, overlooking friendly troops. That should enable them to detect an ARM when it's inbound and so enable them to turn their radar off.
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I'm thinking late-60's to late-70's, operational.
Probably more forward areas, artillery protection detail / forward fire-base defence in an irregular-infiltration / regular force enemy environment similar to Viet Nam.
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M113 variant the, I'd suggest. Either M113 itself or an M577 command vehicle. Here's one example on M548:
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united_states/light_armoured/m113_radar/pictures/m113_radar_station_tracked_armoured_vehicle_battlefield_surveillance_US_Army_United_States_004.jpg)
Not sure what the radar is but it looks like an air search one.
Alternatively, there is the Hawk SAM PARS radar:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/MIM-23_HAWK_PAR_radar_2.jpg)
Put something similar on top of an M577.
Alternatively you could do something similar with the Contraves Flycatcher radar (which is a proper AA set and right for the period) and put it on the back of M548:
(http://www.simthetiqestore.com/images/Flycatcher.IN.green_rear-3D-Models-Openflight-VBS2-Simthetiq.jpg)
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M113 variant the, I'd suggest. Either M113 itself or an M577 command vehicle. Here's one example on M548:
([url]http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united_states/light_armoured/m113_radar/pictures/m113_radar_station_tracked_armoured_vehicle_battlefield_surveillance_US_Army_United_States_004.jpg[/url])
Not sure what the radar is but it looks like an air search one.
Think that's a variation on the Contraves Skyguard. It looks like the standard shelter just stuck on the back of the M548.
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A bit of armour might be nice, given the number of HARM's floating around during/just before bombing missions, though. ;)
How about a M41 undergoing a major rebuild (like the Israelis do) with an armoured box superstructure, a smaller (more) modern engine fitted off to one side, layout reversed (so that it is, essentially, going backwards), with the driver seated (at least partially) beside the engine? ???
You could even do something similar for the SPAAG, with a double hatch at the (new) rear to make reloading easier.
Isn't that basically an M75? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC))
Would make a good radar carrier: loads of room.
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1st time I've heard of the M75 but, yes, it does fit the bill nicely! :)
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I was thinking of rebuilt M-41s as scout vehicles or a vehicle to run with the APCs to give them more protection from other AFVs that are less than a MBT.
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Think that's a variation on the Contraves Skyguard. It looks like the standard shelter just stuck on the back of the M548.
I knew it looked familiar but I couldn't place it.
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Isn't that basically an M75? : [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC)[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC))[/url]
Would make a good radar carrier: loads of room.
Yes but not terribly successful as an APC and already out of service in most armies by the late 1950s. Belgium stuck with them longer than most though. Also rather thirsty and short-ranged.
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Isn't that basically an M75? : [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC)[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M75_(APC))[/url]
Would make a good radar carrier: loads of room.
Yes but not terribly successful as an APC and already out of service in most armies by the late 1950s. Belgium stuck with them longer than most though. Also rather thirsty and short-ranged.
All true and Belgium only stuck with them because they got them for free. However, if you're looking for radar/ammo vehicles on the same platform as your M-41 SPAAGs, then you're going to end up with something awfully like the M75 whatever you do.
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Good point but rather an expensive way of going about it and little outside the parameters set down by Guy as to period. I'm unaware of any models of the M75 from a mainstream manufacturer in 1/35, which I think is really what Guy is looking for.
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Nah, I was just running through a thought experiment triggered by Weaver's M41 20mm SPAAG idea! ;D
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I know these are for M60 tanks but some of the mods should prove inspirational for the M41 too.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7417.0.html (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7417.0.html)
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The attached picture speaks of a proposed M41 variant, made after the T49 development, armed with the same rifled 90mm gun as early M48 medium tank.
(Well, I wished I could find a picture of better resolution or even the source article but couldn't......)
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The attached picture speaks of a proposed M41 variant, made after the T49 development, armed with the same rifled 90mm gun as early M48 medium tank.
(Well, I wished I could find a picture of better resolution or even the source article but couldn't......)
Looks like it comes from Hunnicutt's book on the Sheridan. Which, if you want an explicit history of US post-war light tank development is THE one to get (as are all Hunnicutt's books).
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The artist's impression seems to include a thicker mantlet but not the raised roof à la T49. Does it seem like I should be expecting reduced vertical gun arc compared to the original 76mm?
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My only thought about installing a 90mm gun is the room left inside the turret. The breech has to be larger and the ammunition would take up much more space.
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My only thought about installing a 90mm gun is the room left inside the turret. The breech has to be larger and the ammunition would take up much more space.
It reminds me of what I've been wondering about the Sherman M51's turret volume...... granted, I don't know enough to make the comparison.
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The M51 turret was extensively modified. In the end, the only thing left of the original Sherman turret was the sides. Both fore and aft was cut away and new structures welded on. They had to do that because when they pushed the trunnions forward, to fit first the 90mm and then the 105mm gun, they had to create a counter-balancing mass at the rear (and provide more room for the crew) to balance the load on the turret ring.
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If I scaled this correctly:
(http://i.imgur.com/mRKv4F5.jpg)
I tried to align the trunnions of both vehicles as well, hoping for ease of comparison...... how far does each gun recoil again?
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I think you'll find that the M48 drawing is somewhat squashed both horizontally and vertically. You need to make sure they are both to the same scale before you do a comparison.
As to how far the guns recoil, I have no idea. However, remember they must be able to recoil at maximum depression, otherwise the breech will be smashing into the roof at full recoil!
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(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/drawTanks/M41-Bradley.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/drawTanks/M41-Bradley.jpg.html)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/drawTanks/M41alturret.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/drawTanks/M41alturret.jpg.html)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/drawTanks/M41-HSTV.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/drawTanks/M41-HSTV.jpg.html)
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:)
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So it appears that the 152mm gun/missile launcher system would work on the M41 and as much as I dislike the shape of the M41 turret, I absolutely hate the shape of the M551 turret.
This question didn't immediately come to me, but does the M41's turret have more internal space than the M551 turret or less?
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The Bradley turret on the tank hull looks familiar. Does anyone know just how "deep" the Bradley sits into the vehicle hull? Would a tank have a deep enough space?
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Researching for my Antipodean Armour Fest I found this:
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/mb3_tamoyo.htm (http://www.military-today.com/tanks/mb3_tamoyo.htm)
I had completely forgotten about the Tamoyo and only remembered it when the Osorio popped up in my cold war tank searches.
I liked the look of the Tamoyo but had no idea it owed so much to the M-41, having the same basic chassis but stretched to fit an extra road wheel. Once I was aware of the connection I could actually see the likeness to the M-41.
It would probably be a big job to build a Tamoyo from an M-41 but it does give some additional whiffing ideas.
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More info here (http://www.ecsbdefesa.com.br/arq/Art%2017.htm)
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Oh yes! I do love TAMOYO!
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I might have to buy a Bradley and Bulldog then do some mix and matching. Although I'm guessing a Bradley turret would be too small to fit on either of the other vehicles.
Thanks to the wonders of CAKB (Cheap-ass kit bashing) here's a Tamiya 1/35 M41 with the turret from an Academy M2 Bradley. It would fit with minor surgery to the Tamiya kit.:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1635/23649692694_019fd517b7_o.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1684/24195373521_06f466d71b_o.jpg)
This is the base of the Tamiya turret vs. the Academy turret:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1678/23982311190_6913df8b99_o.jpg)
Bonus - M41 with the turret from a Hobby Boss LAV-150 Commando AFV with Cockerill 90mm:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1441/23982311150_706712d4d0_o.jpg)
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:) I'm very familiar with CAKB! Lol Most of my kit bashed planes come from model expos and cost about $5 each. Now I have a decision to make. Run out to the Lhs tomorrow or wait 2 weeks for another kit show and look for tanks, possibly saving 50-75%...
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That LAV 150 turret looks tiny to be holding a 90mm gun!
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That LAV 150 turret looks tiny to be holding a 90mm gun!
It's a low pressure gun, with less recoil, so it's smaller than you'd expect:
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/belgium/weapons/cmi_defence_turret_CSE90_90_mm/cse90_weapon_system_armoured_vehicle_turret_90_mm_gun_cmi_Defence_cockerill_Belgium_Belgian_page_product_001.jpg)
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I am wondering what the feasibility, and practicality for that matter, of up-gunning with a French CN 75-50 in the late 1950 to early 1960's time frame would be. In part to try and gain better anti-tank capability and also for ammunition compatibility to lower logistics requirements. Please note, the AT capability is to allow recon elements to be able to get away from heavier tanks by killing one from ambush or in a surprise situation. Not to use it in stand up fights against said heavier tanks.
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I have a leftover 105mm gun from an Isherman. If it can fit in a Sherman turret how about an M-41 turret? Worth checking out.
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I have a leftover 105mm gun from an Isherman. If it can fit in a Sherman turret how about an M-41 turret? Worth checking out.
I do believe that the M41 has a turret ring diameter that is 4" greater then the Sherman so it should work. Not sure what the actual turret size difference is and how much rrom there would be in the M41 turret to maneuver and load the 105 rounds.
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I am wondering what the feasibility, and practicality for that matter, of up-gunning with a French CN 75-50 in the late 1950 to early 1960's time frame would be. In part to try and gain better anti-tank capability and also for ammunition compatibility to lower logistics requirements. Please note, the AT capability is to allow recon elements to be able to get away from heavier tanks by killing one from ambush or in a surprise situation. Not to use it in stand up fights against said heavier tanks.
My understanding is that the M32 76mm was no slouch and that the two guns are close enough in performance to make the swap unnecessary. Having said that, I've found it a bit difficult to find good information on the specific performance of the M32.
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Thread necromancy...….
Having just bought my very own Tamiya M-41 I am wondering what regunning options would be realistic assuming a long service life for the type in a Commonwealth military (i.e. Australia).
The reason for the regunning would be logistics not performance persay, i.e. the post WWII ADF adopts the planned Comet (77mm HV) and Centurion (20pdr) tank fleet plus retains the towed 17pdr AT gun. In my alt history the ADF also make use of upgraded M-10C (17pdr) and a 17pdr version of the M-18, as well as a 77mm HV casemate TD replacing towed AT guns in regular line Infantry Btns. My original thinking was for Cavalry / Armoured formations to make use of Comets in their reconnaissance elements and the Infantry to use M-24s (with their 75mm and HE) along side their TDs and 95mm, 25pdr, or 105mm assault guns in their armoured support Companies.
Anyway, back on topic, I am thinking now to the mid 50s and post Korea and the need to upgrade and/or replace the WWII vintage turreted TDs, assault guns and light tanks. Think HVSS M-10s with 20pdrs, or even modified M-36 with same or 105mm L7 and the still lethal 17pdr with its improved propellent (dramatically improving accuracy) or 77mm HVs cascaded to M-41 acquired to replace the M-24.
As an aside it would be interesting to see apples for apples comparisons of penetration as well as size, weight, recoil etc. of the various late war, post war HV tank guns. The various US 76mm, 90mm 120mm; German / French 75, 88, 105mm; British 77mm, 17pdr, 20pdr, 05mm, 120mm. Anyone know of an available (not to hideously expensive) source?
That aside, I am planning to build my M-41 tomorrow and use it as an airbrush project. I have 77mmHV nd 17pdr barrels available for conversion, any ideas which would be best?
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77mm although that would be only for ammunition commonality as it's performance wasn't as good as the 76mm of the M41. The 76mm was good enough to be able to penetrate T54/55/59 MBTs frontally during Lom Son 719 in Laos (admittedly at close range). The 17 Pdr. had a long recoil and a heavy recoil, which precluded it's easy mounting in most tanks.
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Some inspiration: M41 105
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/image.jpg1_zpsrgznzxsy.jpg)
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Ah huh, too lazy though. Mybe I can dress up the current turret and add a suitable gun. Got a few Verlinden 105s somewhere but they are warped from memory.
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Need to start building this before it gets tidied somewhere that I:
a) can't find it
b) can't get to it.
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Missile armed variants from Spain:
M-41E TUA "Cazador" (TOW Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/67/d9/08/bbce79230b118c5faa03f3bec4c7f57866_mq/000%2825%29.jpg)
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/a7/cd/08/3ecc248b019cbe863fa97ac9453b676d45_mq/f33Niye.jpg)
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/fc/e5/3f/b9e610f17c770c2dc29fc900bb717f3cb5_mq/QBEfq7J.jpg)
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/ab/45/d3/f4fe93eeaec5c81e49cb648413c2626e67_mq/M41E+TUA+3.jpg)
M-41E HAKO (HOT Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/a0/0a/2f/8a4a4ac3a623f86d99adb40d3855db0ee3_mq/wpu3Vzu.jpg)
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/d3/15/64/db4d114275c9fbac697795ef94198e4e14_mq/Gdc7DVk.jpg)
M-41E with Thune-Eureka turret (TOW Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/d6/86/4e/73eddf5862f876d5ab2af65a51442af625_mq/QvWOlv0.jpg)
M-41E with K3S turret (HOT Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/09/fa/98/72284dcbb13ee2a0374113b75dad77c644_mq/gah1eB9.jpg)
M-41E with Mephisto turret (HOT Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/a4/16/bc/ae5f6f4b32ef88141e9b7e579ee88be6b5_mq/dUSiUD3.jpg)
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Some inspiration: M41 105
That's Caddilac Gage's turret for their STINGRAY tank. They'll pop that on just about any hull that'll fit (like an M551 Sheridan).
Three view drawing not embedded, so you guys can get the max resolution
https://i.imgur.com/QItkxVv.jpg
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Missile armed variants from Spain:
M-41E TUA "Cazador" (TOW Missiles): ...
Interesting! And a nice bit of recycling :smiley: That Emerson TUA turret must be similar to that on the US Army's M901 ITVs.
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I should get on with my idea of an M-41 “Stug” assault gun vehicle with either a 90mm or 105mm gun. I want to do an engine change so I’ll have to scratch build a new rear end. I wanted to try transplanting an M48 or M60 engine housing in 1/48th scale but try to find one of those. You would think they would be common but it appears not.
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These missile-armed M41s are really cool. :smiley: The variety of turrets is also quite interesting.
I should get on with my idea of an M-41 “Stug” assault gun vehicle with either a 90mm or 105mm gun. <...>
You should! :smiley: Seeing the superstructure on those missile-armed tanks, they immediately reminded me of the German Kanonenjagdpanzer (gun-armed tank destroyer) that were rebuilt into Raketenjagdpanzer (missile-armed tank destroyers) when their 90mm guns were no longer up to date.
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Now that you mentioned it I do see the similarities. Interesting…….
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I should get on with my idea of an M-41 “Stug” assault gun vehicle with either a 90mm or 105mm gun. I want to do an engine change so I’ll have to scratch build a new rear end. I wanted to try transplanting an M48 or M60 engine housing in 1/48th scale but try to find one of those. You would think they would be common but it appears not.
Cool idea! Probably just as well that you can't find a 1/48 M48 and M60 kit. Other than the obscenely-expensive motorized Tamiya kit, most of these seem mostly to be over-priced (but under-detailed) repops of '70s Snap-Tite kits :P
In any case, the rear section of a 1/48 Patton would be over .60 inches narrower than a 1/35 M41 (although I realize that doesn't account for the difference in track cover widths).
Anyway, love your concept. Maybe combining Bundeswehr M41 hulls with 'recycled' M47 90s for a direct whif alternative to the actual Kanonenjagdpanzer ?
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I should get on with my idea of an M-41 “Stug” assault gun vehicle with either a 90mm or 105mm gun. I want to do an engine change so I’ll have to scratch build a new rear end. I wanted to try transplanting an M48 or M60 engine housing in 1/48th scale but try to find one of those. You would think they would be common but it appears not.
Not necessarily - I'm not sure an AVDS-1790 (M48/60 power pack) would fit into that engine bay.
Scroll up to the Cazacarros drawings. They appear to show an unchanged engine deck, with the upgraded Spanish power pack.
I *think* this was a new General Motors 8V-71T diesel engine developing 400 hp.
For more details on upgraded M41 engines, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M41_Walker_Bulldog
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I should get on with my idea of an M-41 “Stug” assault gun vehicle with either a 90mm or 105mm gun. I want to do an engine change so I’ll have to scratch build a new rear end. I wanted to try transplanting an M48 or M60 engine housing in 1/48th scale but try to find one of those. You would think they would be common but it appears not.
One good reason to build armour in 1/35, especially as there's not that big a price difference. ;)
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The M41U/M41UR (http://otm-uswot.blogspot.com/2018/03/m41ur.html) with a 90mm Cockerill gun:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vB9oCWjaPd4/Wr50Nzx4pWI/AAAAAAAACNU/W2h9ni-cl7gcOzudgxS571HW8e9XWgGGwCLcBGAs/s1600/M41UR.jpg)
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Lots of wonderful ideas in this thread. :smiley:
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M-41E with K3S turret (HOT Missiles):
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/09/fa/98/72284dcbb13ee2a0374113b75dad77c644_mq/gah1eB9.jpg)
WALL-E is done hauling your trash!
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;D
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ARVN M-41 with sun shade.
(https://i.imgur.com/05V01rd.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/oIw85Sm.jpg)
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West German 123rd TK BN, 1961
(https://www.stripes.com/news/migrated.image.19869_115222636.jpg/alternates/LANDSCAPE_910/%27%27Aggressor%27%27%20armor%20from%20the%20German%20Army%27s%20123rd%20T)
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Now wouldn't it be a Plot Twist if Vietnam (who has ARVN legacy Bulldogs) put in a tender for Taiwan's Bulldog fleet and did they're own 21st century upgrade?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44406/taiwan-prepares-to-give-up-its-m41a3-walker-bulldog-tanks-after-more-than-six-decades?fbclid=IwAR3liNJZU50w1fGIlJHfFM-mqZnq2Hg-qewKVEraiC-Bv618sWL7F60Kpcc (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44406/taiwan-prepares-to-give-up-its-m41a3-walker-bulldog-tanks-after-more-than-six-decades?fbclid=IwAR3liNJZU50w1fGIlJHfFM-mqZnq2Hg-qewKVEraiC-Bv618sWL7F60Kpcc)
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Dominican M41 camo pattern.
(https://i.imgur.com/XDeuNLp.jpeg)
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:smiley:
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Alternative guns for M41
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/M41_guns.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/M41_guns.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
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I've currently got one in my 'to-do' box along with new tracks (which is packed because I have to move AGAIN) and I'm tossing up doing the following for my 2000AD post WW3 builds:
- M41 w/ M103 105 mm Howitzer from the Spanish M108 SPGs. This will be done up as a direct support SPG for dealing with bunkers and applique armour in Spanish NATO livery.
- M41 w/ scratch-built Thyssen-Henschel 'Tanque Argentino Mediano' turret in West German* livery. Either Bundeswehr or Bundesgrenzschutz. I'm a bit unsure about this because the 105mm L7A3 cannon is four times heavier than the M32A1 76mm gun and I'm not sure if the chassis would stand the firing shock.
- Something else my fevered imagination comes up with.
(*I know, but in this scenario there's still a West Germany)
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It just occurred to me the TS-90 turret of the Panhard ERC-90 might be a good fit as well
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Anybody know about the diesel engine installation on IIRC the Danish rebuilds? I wondering what the engine deck and rear look like. I’ve wondered if a 1/48th M-60 engine deck would fit.
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It just occurred to me the TS-90 turret of the Panhard ERC-90 might be a good fit as well
Way back in this thread (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4222.msg101415#msg101415) I have a mockup with a Bradley turret and a LAV-150 Commando turret and Cockerill 90mm gun, so that may work.
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Anybody know about the diesel engine installation on IIRC the Danish rebuilds? I wondering what the engine deck and rear look like. I’ve wondered if a 1/48th M-60 engine deck would fit.
Attached is an image showing the rear deck of the M41DK1 conversion. The new engine is a Cummins VTA-903TR powerpack - a turbo-charged diesel V8 related to the VTA-903-T600 in upgraded Bradleys.
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Thanks for that pic!
That looks like field green and black paint pattern. Gives me ideas……
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Another shot of the M41 HAKO:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-6LfqPXEAM5tt8?format=jpg&name=small)
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One of these days I will build my M41 StuG. These pics are helpful.
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It just occurred to me the TS-90 turret of the Panhard ERC-90 might be a good fit as well
Way back in this thread (https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4222.msg101415#msg101415) I have a mockup with a Bradley turret and a LAV-150 Commando turret and Cockerill 90mm gun, so that may work.
I think I've got some resin Panhard Turrets (and hulls) that'd be good starting points.
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Anybody know about the diesel engine installation on IIRC the Danish rebuilds? I wondering what the engine deck and rear look like. I’ve wondered if a 1/48th M-60 engine deck would fit.
https://www.army-guide.com/eng/product917.html (https://www.army-guide.com/eng/product917.html)
Accurate Armor use to offer a conversion https://www.hlj.com/1-35-scale-danish-m41-dk1-walker-bulldog-conversion-acmc088 (https://www.hlj.com/1-35-scale-danish-m41-dk1-walker-bulldog-conversion-acmc088)
https://www.wargaming3d.com/product/danish-m41-dk/ (https://www.wargaming3d.com/product/danish-m41-dk/)
(https://www.wargaming3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Design-pic3-510x309.jpg)
Tamiya deck and resin Panhard turret for scale. Looks like the OEM engine deck is the same as the diesel conversion above, which makes sense.
(https://i.imgur.com/M2WpNif.jpg)
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Accurate Armour still offers the M41 conversion for the Danish version: Accurate Armour Home Page > AA products > 1:35th Conversion Sets > C088 Danish M41 DK1 (https://accurate-armour.com/aa-products/135th-conversion-sets/c088)
I hope to eventually find one of these for sale on this side of the pond instead of having to deal with the cost of shipping from the UK.
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It just occurred to me the TS-90 turret of the Panhard ERC-90 might be a good fit as well
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=51.msg146515#msg146515
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/m41-lcts-90/#google_vignette
(https://i.imgur.com/QMp5kTa.png)
Cadillac Gage turret
(https://i.imgur.com/FUKqpGT.png)
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And if I can fit a LAV-150 Cockerill turret onto a Warrior;
(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAM-FV521AS-90mm-FSV/i-kmm2W3j/0/DhXr44zKQnJqLN2qqCN4GdkzTxXm6vdnXBdNdkF7x/X3/DSCN4241-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAM-FV521AS-90mm-FSV/i-WXjwZmx/0/W5dRmfFcGG5p8FfkfQ6m92txhQszxSkG8R4Nt6L6/X3/DSCN4247-X3.jpg)
Then there shouldn't be a problem fitting one to a M41.
;)
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You guys are going to send me broke
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You guys are going to send me broke
Hobby Lobby (in the US) is dumping TAMIYA M41 kits for @ $16 after their 40% discount.
Everything else you can kitbash.
@PFJN might be able to burn ya a resin Cadillac Gage style turret.
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You guys are going to send me broke
Hobby Lobby (in the US) is dumping TAMIYA M41 kits for @ $16 after their 40% discount.
Everything else you can kitbash.
@PFJN might be able to burn ya a resin Cadillac Gage style turret.
I already have two M41s in the stash.
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At my preferred Australian online shops;
Tamiya's 1/35 M41 Walker Bulldog is going for about AU$27.50 at the moment.
Hobby Boss' 1/35 LAV-150 Commando AFV w/Cockerill 90mm Gun is priced at about AU$40.50 (which is stupidly high, imo) but is out of stock.
If you're willing to accept the alternate, then the Hobby Boss 1/35 LAV-150 APC 90mm Mecar Gun is a couple of dollars cheaper at AU$38.50 (again, over-priced, imo) & is also out of stock.
This would leave you with a M41 turret to put on a LAV-150. ;)
I would assume that in the US prices would be both lower in raw number & real value.
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Yeah, I just got another M41 for $24AUS which is like 20c in real country money. They're like eating macadamias, it's impossible to stop at one.
Slat Armour is piquing my interest at the moment. I'm wondering what a good basic vehicle to look at over on Prime Portal would be to crib slat armour mounts off.
I also found some Dragon Viet Cong (National Liberation Front of South Vietnam) Sappers in the stash and I thought the M41 knocked out might make a good setting for them, I know Star Decals does a nice set of decals for an ARVN M41 but that would mean yet another of the bulldogs
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I was digging around in the stash the other day and came across a bag of tank parts that I received from Mr Fontaine some time ago. Now I’m obsessed with building some kind of fictitious or SF apc out of it. No turret so maybe something like the Achzarit or Nagmachon. I figured out it’s the Brazilian EE-T2 tank. It appears all the hull parts are there just no turret. I’m sure it went to a greater cause.
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I was digging around in the stash the other day and came across a bag of tank parts that I received from Mr Fontaine some time ago. Now I’m obsessed with building some kind of fictitious or SF apc out of it. No turret so maybe something like the Achzarit or Nagmachon. I figured out it’s the Brazilian EE-T2 tank. It appears all the hull parts are there just no turret. I’m sure it went to a greater cause.
The EE-T2 turret is dedicated to an M41 Walker Bulldog hull and is still sitting here in the stash waiting to be dealt with.
Glad to see my discarded bits and pieces are getting a second look and possible purpose. :smiley:
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I was digging around in the stash the other day and came across a bag of tank parts that I received from Mr Fontaine some time ago. Now I’m obsessed with building some kind of fictitious or SF apc out of it. No turret so maybe something like the Achzarit or Nagmachon. I figured out it’s the Brazilian EE-T2 tank. It appears all the hull parts are there just no turret. I’m sure it went to a greater cause.
The EE-T2 turret is dedicated to an M41 Walker Bulldog hull and is still sitting here in the stash waiting to be dealt with.
Glad to see my discarded bits and pieces are getting a second look and possible purpose. :smiley:
Will it be as a regular tank turret or solidly mounted assault gun sort of thing? Curious to know the plan!
I’m still thinking about putting it on eight wheels. That would be very different.
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I was digging around in the stash the other day and came across a bag of tank parts that I received from Mr Fontaine some time ago. Now I’m obsessed with building some kind of fictitious or SF apc out of it. No turret so maybe something like the Achzarit or Nagmachon. I figured out it’s the Brazilian EE-T2 tank. It appears all the hull parts are there just no turret. I’m sure it went to a greater cause.
The EE-T2 turret is dedicated to an M41 Walker Bulldog hull and is still sitting here in the stash waiting to be dealt with.
Glad to see my discarded bits and pieces are getting a second look and possible purpose. :smiley:
Will it be as a regular tank turret or solidly mounted assault gun sort of thing? Curious to know the plan!
I’m still thinking about putting it on eight wheels. That would be very different.
The EE-T2 turret fits the M41 turret ring with little to no modification required. I think that may have been from the IRL development program since Brazil owned and operated a lot of M41 light tanks and had a decent industrial base to support upgrades of the M41 fleet. That said, as much as I like the M41 the turret was never high on my list of things I liked about the M41. Always felt it could be improved upon to provide better features and crew comfort, etc. While it is a light tank and cramped inside it still has promise.
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Interesting thoughts on the M41. The turret could have been a little wider to allow more room inside.
Question for the group. Does anyone know if I could buy ERA blocks aftermarket? I’m trying to cast my own from the Italeri M60 Blazer kit but I may need a back up plan. The casting rubber I’m using is old but the rubber I poured last night seems to be setting up ok. I’ll see what happens later today when I pull it out of the master. The casting resin was really bad so I’m going to use UV resin to make the parts. I just need a sunny day to cure the UV resin. That’s one nice part about it, finished part in about 60 seconds.
If I do my own research I find there is several companies producing ERA but it seems it’s all Russian Kontakt type. I was really hoping there was a US or NATO type but this can be the second string back up plan.
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Attached images showing M41 turret with modifications to make it compatible with the M551 Sheridan hull.
The M41 turret ring was removed in its entirety from the turret. The M551 Sheridan turret ring was cut away from the rest of the Sheridan turret and attached to the M41 turret. This in turn allows the M41 turret to fit comfortably on the Sheridan hull and it will rotate freely and is not held in place with the small retaining tabs which I removed from the ring before mating the parts together.
***Edit to add additional information on the modifications made to the turret. -- jjf
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Interesting thoughts on the M41. The turret could have been a little wider to allow more room inside.
Question for the group. Does anyone know if I could buy ERA blocks aftermarket? I’m trying to cast my own from the Italeri M60 Blazer kit but I may need a back up plan. The casting rubber I’m using is old but the rubber I poured last night seems to be setting up ok. I’ll see what happens later today when I pull it out of the master. The casting resin was really bad so I’m going to use UV resin to make the parts. I just need a sunny day to cure the UV resin. That’s one nice part about it, finished part in about 60 seconds.
IDF and NATO 'Blazer' ERA are the same thing
https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION (https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION)[]=All&q=blazer&fkSCALENORMALISED[]=%221:00035%22
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Interesting thoughts on the M41. The turret could have been a little wider to allow more room inside.
Question for the group. Does anyone know if I could buy ERA blocks aftermarket? I’m trying to cast my own from the Italeri M60 Blazer kit but I may need a back up plan. The casting rubber I’m using is old but the rubber I poured last night seems to be setting up ok. I’ll see what happens later today when I pull it out of the master. The casting resin was really bad so I’m going to use UV resin to make the parts. I just need a sunny day to cure the UV resin. That’s one nice part about it, finished part in about 60 seconds.
IDF and NATO 'Blazer' ERA are the same thing
https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION (https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION)[]=All&q=blazer&fkSCALENORMALISED[]=%221:00035%22
But they look different.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7v8AAOSwWnReRsss/s-l1600.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/DM-SC-92-03658.jpg/640px-DM-SC-92-03658.jpg)
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Weird.
All the sources I can find indicate that the M60 RISE armour package was the Israeli 'Blazer; ERA. I say 'indicate' because I can't find the procurement data on it.
But yeah, that's different stuff.
I have an old Verlinden set of it but it's long out of production
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The second image is not depicting an ERA package on that M60A1. If I remember correctly, the USMC acquired a type of ceramic and metal armor to fit their M60A1 fleet to offer a slight improvement against certain types of munitions. Not sure if it was intended to defeat or nullify the HEAT type chemical energy warheads or to assist in defeating kinetic energy projectiles. It was at most just a quick fix for the M60A1 fleet then in service with the Marine Corps.
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Took a lot of looking! yep, it's the RISE 'NERA' add-on armour.
Verlinden 1/35 Vp575 Tank Armor M60 A1 Rise Add On
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/verlinden-productions-575-m60-a1-rise--209341 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/verlinden-productions-575-m60-a1-rise--209341)
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Took a lot of looking! yep, it's the RISE 'NERA' add-on armour.
Verlinden 1/35 Vp575 Tank Armor M60 A1 Rise Add On
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/verlinden-productions-575-m60-a1-rise--209341 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/verlinden-productions-575-m60-a1-rise--209341)
Thanks for digging that name up, it was bugging me as I recognized what it was but had long ago forgotten the official description for the stuff. I could only recall that it was a combination of metal plates with something inert sandwiched between. Link to more details and a bit of history on the NERA type add-on armour at WikipediaNon-Explosive Reactive Armor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-explosive_reactive_armor)
***Edit to create something coherent from my reply -- jjf
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I have already destroyed one Tamiya M41 turret while trying to improve the commander's position. My focus was on removing that odd looking feature entirely to replace it with something more fitting such as the cupola from an M113 or the "Urdan" style cupola adoped for use on the M48A5 and reminiscent of the cupola seen on early production M48 and M103 tanks.
Will try to do the same modifications again with another turret but this time making sure of what I remove before going all out and cocking up another one.
One of the AFV Club M41 kits included a metal barrel but the muzzle brake was plastic. Can not recall if it is the M41 that originated with Skybow or the AFV Club kit but all in all, the AFV Club/Skybow kits are a much nicer kit as it should be considering what the price is for the damned things. Tamiya is the path of least expense and easy to come by in comparison.
So I have bought myself this to change over cupolas, do you have any recommendations?
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/defmodel-dm35115-us-m113-okinawa-shield-cupola-set-m113-1-35--1370652 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/defmodel-dm35115-us-m113-okinawa-shield-cupola-set-m113-1-35--1370652)
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I like that M113 cupola.
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So I have bought myself this to change over cupolas, do you have any recommendations?
Hard to narrow it down to just one. Specifically for the Tamiya M41 kit; If you are up for the challenge and can successfully remove the commander's cupola and fill in the large not circular void that is left and get it converted to a round hole that can fit an M113 cupola then you are off to a good start. The "Urdan" cupola (also available from that same company) is your other option or something similar from the spare parts bin. Another option might be the late model M4 Sherman all-around vision cupola that was fitted toward the end of the Sherman production run. That style or type cupola was used on many other armored vehicles in the 50s and 60s.
One of our other members here created a very nice looking M41 with modifications to the hull that included adding an air-cleaner box from an M48/M60 to one side and leaving just one exhaust muffler on the other to represent an engine upgrade to something with better fuel consumption and power output (fuel injected diesel with turbo-super charger). There were other modification made but the air-cleaner box was the most memorable on that build for me.
Additional inspiration for a T2K themed M41: M41-DK1 built by Marcel Jussen at Modellversium.de (https://www.modellversium.de/galerie/22-militaer-fahrzeuge/3477-m41-dk1-battle-tank-afv-club.html) (German language but you can use a translator on your browser if necessary).
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For anyone thinking of chopping off that cupola I found the weld image of the turret showing what it would look like with it gone.
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Nice find!
My own attempt to remove that portion of the Tamiya M41 turret ended with an egg-shaped hole thanks to the shape of the cupola.
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Nice find!
My own attempt to remove that portion of the Tamiya M41 turret ended with an egg-shaped hole thanks to the shape of the cupola.
I'm thinking mine will end up the same. Then I'll try and blank it out with a sheet of stock and put the cupola on that.
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Really glad that the Tamiya M41 kit is so cheap. No regrets when I mutilate the kit while experimenting with an idea this latest attempt resulted in me cracking the upper hull while enlarging the turret ring hole to allow fitting the turret from an Italian Leopard 1A4.
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As you've cut of the APU's exhaust exit you'll have to fund another place for it :)
That exhaust gave them no end of problems, it had four official locations for the muffler including one where they ran a pipe out of the exhaust, along the stowage beside the turret and onto the front mudguard. You could literally have it coming out the cannon muzzle and it wouldn't be any less ludicrous than the official one.
Everything's on the back-burner for me as I move yet again. A couple of week's couch surfing to recoup the money I had to pay when my flatmate took off and stopped paying rent is in the cards.
I wonder if they'll let me set the resin printer up in the loungeroom? :)
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As you've cut of the APU's exhaust exit you'll have to fund another place for it :)
That exhaust gave them no end of problems, it had four official locations for the muffler including one where they ran a pipe out of the exhaust, along the stowage beside the turret and onto the front mudguard. You could literally have it coming out the cannon muzzle and it wouldn't be any less ludicrous than the official one.
Everything's on the back-burner for me as I move yet again. A couple of week's couch surfing to recoup the money I had to pay when my flatmate took off and stopped paying rent is in the cards.
I wonder if they'll let me set the resin printer up in the loungeroom? :)
Good eye catching the APU feature removal. For the Tamiya kit there is not much there to begin with beyond a raised feature that is of irregular dimensions. The AFV Club kits (both AFV Club and the original Skybow) have that APU exhaust feature going in both directions as you described. Not that will stop me from removing the damned thing from those kits too as I am not fond of that feature even if it is a necessary bit of kit. I like the idea of perhaps installing the APU in a different location in the hull where it is not in the way.
A shame you are going to be living out of a suitcase for the near future. Hope you find a new place soon.
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The APU sits just in front of the engine on the right lower side of the hull. I can't see why an exhaust pipe can't run along the bottom of the engine pay, the engine by definition will be off so it won't overheat it. That's bring it out near the infantry telephone on the rear hull?
Evidently the first 2,000 just vented straight out that little triangular vent, no muffler at all. It must have been deafening.
I agree, dumb spot for it and it sort of shrieks 'after thought'. I bet the fumes went straight up the side of the turret and in the ventilator.
go but no fume hood for the printer, maybe I can just put it outside at night?
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Caption as presented
" Vietnam War. Two Us Marine Tanks Stuck In Deep Mud In Northeastern Thailand During Operation Bold Mariner.
It's Objective Was To Find Viet Cong "
That'd be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bold_Mariner
Other captions are "1962 Stuck M41 Walker Bulldog Tank 3rd Recon Squadron [ARVN] Thailand"
Note the Regimental shield on the turret and the IR spotlight
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/28/ad/5028adaf370783252745670ac456a0d0.jpg)
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Caption as presented
" Vietnam War. Two Us Marine Tanks Stuck In Deep Mud In Northeastern Thailand During Operation Bold Mariner.
It's Objective Was To Find Viet Cong "
That'd be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bold_Mariner
Other captions are "1962 Stuck M41 Walker Bulldog Tank 3rd Recon Squadron [ARVN] Thailand"
Note the Regimental shield on the turret and the IR spotlight
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/28/ad/5028adaf370783252745670ac456a0d0.jpg)
They should have taken PBRs! ;)
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Finally, a successful modification of the commander's cupola to get rid of the original cupola and replace it with something less conspicuous.
Ground away carefully the original cupala.
Applied a bit of 2-part epoxy putty to the area under the commander's sight. This turned out to be a benefit and a hindrance as it did not adhere to the plastic and fell out while sanding and enlarging the hole created by removal of the cupola features. This was fixed by sanding the area inside the turret and applying CA glue before putting the epoxy plug back in place.
More sanding and carving again to create a larger hole and then to the bag of parts containing circular shapes to find something to use as a collar on the turret roof to cover the oblong hole shape I had created. The new collar part was modified to fit and the inside diameter was increased to allow the M113 cupola to fit comfortably within. This has brought to me much happiness and joy since this is my third attempt at this modification. Third time is a charm?
Attached images with and without cupola
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Now of course you have to add the ACAV armor to the M113 turret! They did it to the Sheridan. I have one if you need it. I don't know why I didn't think of it but I have extra M41 turrets. I could have saved you the trouble of buying another kit.
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Thanks but I have at least a platoons worth of Academy and Tamiya Sheridans in the stash.
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Now of course you have to add the ACAV armor to the M113 turret! They did it to the Sheridan. I have one if you need it. I don't know why I didn't think of it but I have extra M41 turrets. I could have saved you the trouble of buying another kit.
If you are in the US and willing to part with some M41 turrets, please shoot me a PM. I would very much like to get my hands on some!
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I think I have two but one has the rear toolbox cut off. I also have the gun barrels
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How about a Stug type with the 90mm gun?
For a different cupola steal one from an M-48.
Someone somewhere (Secret Projects? What If?). I forgot which but either Belgium or Denmark came up with a modernized version with a bunch of added on stuff on top on the turret
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Denmark had an upgraded version for quite some time. There was a resin conversion kit at one time.
I’m in the process of an assault gun version plus the TOW counterpart. Also known as the Badger and the Weasel.
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11315.125
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@Kerick ------> Accurate Armour produced the M41DK1 conversion for the Skybow M41A3 kit.
Link Scalemates > Accurate Armour > Danish M41DK1 conversion (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/accurate-armour-c088-danish-m41-dk1-walker-bulldog-conversion--310888)
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That’s the one I was thinking of! Thanks.
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The M41 DK-1 replaced the original petrol engine with a more fuel-efficient US Cummins VTA-903T diesel (similar to that in the Bradley IFV); installation of forward-firing grenade dischargers either side of the turret (as already fitted to the Danish Leopard 1); installation of an NBC system in the turret bustle; a fire detection and suppression system; new battery installation; improved internal layout; redesigned stowage rack and bins; a heater; a new DISA 7.62 mm anti-aircraft machine gun mount on the turret roof in place of the 12.7 mm M2 MG; installation of side skirts similar to those on the Leopard 1; new electric gun controls, a thermal night vision system for the gunner with an integrated laser range-finder; a halogen searchlight mounted on the gun mantlet; a night vision periscope for the driver; and night vision goggles for the commander. A scavenger system was also fitted for the 76 mm gun breech and 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.
(https://preview.redd.it/m41-dk-1-the-danish-armys-upgraded-walker-bulldog-v0-t5iw32bvsux91.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3de4bdd611d2043472e47311f92e979962a5db3f)
There was also the T49 development which had a 90mm gun:
(https://preview.redd.it/the-prototype-light-tank-t49-by-the-us-army-v0-tny306cojtd81.jpg?width=320&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=eeac6129d81c7872c44bfb5e4636ccaf5e82c792)
(https://preview.redd.it/the-prototype-light-tank-t49-by-the-us-army-v0-1u03dicojtd81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=fcb2013deea47de8104aaee319cefdc754814bf8)
(https://preview.redd.it/the-prototype-light-tank-t49-by-the-us-army-v0-e6qc6icojtd81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=41a5d55afa60050e1c206487e2351b679f58f16d)
And later the 152mm gun/launcher:
(https://preview.redd.it/the-prototype-light-tank-t49-by-the-us-army-v0-keo6bpcojtd81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f41f906b4ab6c78375962d7a5628f0d7965fa863)