Author Topic: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70  (Read 36771 times)

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2021, 03:21:37 AM »
Excuse my ignorance  :-[, but I do know. I see no coaxial sight or tv camera :icon_crap: ...

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2021, 10:57:47 AM »
About the 20mm gun in unmanned litle turret. How was this gun aimed?

@Carlos - The 20mm Rh202 was controlled via the panoramic sight located on the periphery of the commander's cupola.  As described in this paragraph from Wikipedia [the highlighted bold and underlined text] :
Quote
The secondary armament of the MBT-70 consisted of a remote-controlled 20 mm Rh 202 autocannon for use against aircraft and light armored vehicles.[9] The gun could be retracted into a container behind the driver's rotating cupola for protection as well as to reduce overall height, and was operated remotely by the commander.

That panoramic sight is the tall-slender sight unit that can be seen in the image that GTX linked in his comment above.  Go to the link I have provided look at the schematic titled "Turret weapon layout, autocannon in stowed position, barrel pointing backwards" which shows the various features on the MBT-70/KPz.70 turret with number 6 identifying the panoramic sight. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:00:24 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2021, 01:38:00 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:




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Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2021, 07:11:56 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:

Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2021, 07:53:34 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:
Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?
The Marder IFV was in production [ca 1971] and mounted the MK 20/Rh 202 20mm cannon long before that Leopard 2 Prototype [ca 1979] was even a twinkle in the eyes of the Leopard 2 design team. 
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2021, 08:49:12 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:



I find this tank (turret to be exact) much more attractive than firsts Leopard 2.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2021, 01:32:46 PM »
Jeffry, THANKS A LOT!

Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2021, 09:14:57 PM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:
Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?
The Marder IFV was in production [ca 1971] and mounted the MK 20/Rh 202 20mm cannon long before that Leopard 2 Prototype [ca 1979] was even a twinkle in the eyes of the Leopard 2 design team.

 Nevermind, I found the book answer myself.

The weapon station carries a 20 mm Maschinen Kanone Rh-202 which was first conceived during the Kpz-70/MBT-70 project. The system was deemed to fill the gap between the 120 mm main armament and the coaxial 7.62 mm MG. The canon was aimed electrically by the commander.

In the end, the station was not considered for series production, but the canon was adopted for other German AFVs such as the Marder and Luchs

https://panzerplace.eu/sekundarlafette-fur-turm-kpz-leopard-2-pt/

Offline apophenia

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2021, 07:47:36 AM »
https://panzerplace.eu/sekundarlafette-fur-turm-kpz-leopard-2-pt/

Great link! Thanks for that  :smiley:

But no mention of the maker of or designation for this 'Sekundärlafette:(

The Marder's standard KuKa turret seems always to be given some generic description with nary a designation to be found. You see things like 'Zweimann-Turm' or 'Scheitellafette' ... which are about as specific and helpful as 'Heck-MG' or 'unbemannten Turm' for the 1A1's goofy, rear RWS  :P

Weirdly, the turrets of experimental Marder variants are specifically identified. Prior to receiving an early version of the 'Zweimann-Turm', the prototype RU 363 mounted a Rheinmetall DL-RH 3 'Ein-Mann-Turm'. The Marder M12 had a KUKA/Rheinmetall E4A1 Turm for its Mauser MK 30-2. I guess the exception is the Marder 2 - I know it had a KuKa-built turret, but no clue on a designation.

As you said, where is Marderman? Didi would know  :D
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Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2021, 09:55:20 PM »

As you said, where is Marderman? Didi would know  :D

1) Exactly.
2) You're welcome for the rabbit hole to explore.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2021, 05:54:32 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:

Hi Greg, can I asume that this prototype is based on Leopard 1A4 or so?

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2021, 10:41:37 AM »
The point is: were Leopard 2 pttyp and Leopard 1A3 or 1A4 dimensionally similar. You know that Leo2 hull is clearly bigger than Leo1 hull.  ???

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2021, 07:41:43 AM »
I answer myself





Protitype's hull is lengthier than Leo 2A4's :o :icon_ninja:

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2021, 12:59:29 AM »
If the MBT70 had entered service I wonder what upgrades it might have had by now?
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Offline raafif

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2024, 07:17:39 AM »
Russian Vis-mod MBT-70 !

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2024, 07:39:06 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2024, 11:18:12 PM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:



I find this tank (turret to be exact) much more attractive than firsts Leopard 2.

Exactly! I love this turret!