Author Topic: Avro CF-105 Arrow  (Read 27058 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2013, 12:06:03 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

There was an external fuel tank mount for a single 500 gal tank aft of the weapons pack on the Mark. 2.

As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.
The bigger 30mm gun was even more problematic:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/GSh-6-30.htm
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2013, 12:08:32 AM »
I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.

In Reply #7, I posted some 'Whiff' schemes, the prints show where a centerline tank or other weapons were to be carried.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2013, 12:16:00 AM »
My first Arrow built I enhanced the early Hobbycraft kit a bit.  Tried to correct the main gear a bit to how it really was and I made the weapons bay somewhat like the details found in the Arrowhead book.
Top pic shows the 'gaping hole' Jon referes to, next two are of the weapons pack.

BTW, I had about 40 vacuform kits of the CF-105.  I've manage to sell quite a few of them but now I have run out of one of the sheets that I need to move the rest.  I will have to get some formed up but I want to make some masters of the moulds before I do that.  Something that will last a while.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:18:27 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2013, 01:02:35 AM »
Cool Robert.  :)

I like that you have the correct number of Sparrow II.  ;)
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2013, 01:09:34 AM »
There just wasn't any room for any more Jon, and even then the fin tips had to poke through the doors (just like the real thing)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2013, 01:24:43 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

No problem.

I thought the modern-day "Super-Arrow" was a bit OTT as well. I think it's reasonable to imagine it having a similar career to the Phantom, i.e. major new versions towards the end on the 1960s, upgrades to existing aircraft in the 1980/90s then a diminishing "legacy asset" beyond theend of the century with upgrades aimed at life extension rather than capbility.


Quote
As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Well again, I was projecting a similar experience to the Phantom, i.e. it goes to 'nam (not necessarily in Canadian hands), gets presented with a completely different scenario to that for which it was designed, and has to be modified accordingly.

Quote
Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.

Didn't know about the GSh-6-23 problems - cheers.  :)

Limited relevence to the Arrow though, since that's one gun it definitely wouldn't be fitted with. I only mentioned the MiG-31 because the  position of it's gun (i.e. a long way back on the fuselage) was relevent to the issue of mounting a gun a long way back on the Arrow. The latter would probably have a Vulcan.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2013, 02:45:48 AM »
Nice work there.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2013, 03:22:00 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2013, 07:44:08 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

agreed BUT theres nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy after all thats what ahat if is all about :)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

Ditto.  As usual, the myth making tries to make up with fantasy what reality denies.  The CF-105 was a remarkable aircraft but like the TSR2 it is one of the great "should have beens".  It was not though, ever intended to be anything other than an interceptor.  Unfortunately too few "fan boyz" (tm, JF) seem to understand that try and turn it into something else.   In reality, when the Soviet manned bomber threat disappeared, it's usefulness was basically over.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?

The F-111 was a great aircraft that was, that in hind sight probably was not ideal for a small to medium air force like the RAAF and had an opportunity cost that hurt across defence for decades.  The clowns wanting life extend it into the 2030s were beyond delusional.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 03:23:27 AM »
The Arrow hype is largely fed by those that don't have a single functional clue about air forces or the aircraft they use.

Roadmap for Arrow, post "real-world" cancellation.

1. RL 206 flies with PS-13 engines. The MKII becomes the "standard" Arrow design.

2. The MKIII Arrow is a MKII with photo-recon gear instead of the weapons system.

3. Similar consideration is given to electronic reconnaissance, producing the MKIV.

4. AVRO engineers seek to solve the issue of Surface to Air Missile vulnerability that the MKIII/IV Arrow has in over-flying hostile territory. They invent the modern tactical chaff/flare dispenser in response.

5. Investigations into the strike capability of the CF-105 produce the MKV. The MKV is essentially a MKII with the weapons pack deleted and replaced with reinforced structure. Air-to-air radar is replaced with ground search/targeting. Initially the payload is only 4,500 lbs... but rapidly increases to 12,000 lbs.

6. Upgrades to the MKIII produce a viable electronic warfare capability. The MKIIIb can jam hostile radars, the MKIIIc can carry and launch anti-radiation missiles.

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 04:47:58 AM »
Option 2.   I like option 2
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 05:01:15 AM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 05:02:54 AM »

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."


What?!  No Refuelling by other Arrows?  Damn waste of a platform if you ask me... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 09:08:36 AM »

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Dunno why they'd be 'livid' and it would depend on timeline, as M-D didn't come into being
until 1967, and I doubt if the Douglas side of the house would have cared anyhow.   ;)

No love lost between Long Beach and St. Louis.  ;D
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actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 04:52:08 AM »
Folks:

I am very privileged to come across some very rare Avro Arrow Memorabilia.

The two pictures below are scans are what I consider authentic photos borrowed from an ex-Avro employee who was employed as an Executive Assistant.

She worked first as an EA first for a RCAF Air Commodore (I am guessing the rank. Waiting for details. Her memory is not that good anymore) and later in the Avro Sales organization. It was in the sales department where she came to acquire these photos. The story as told to me by her son is that when visitors would come to the factory, they would layout a large number of photos as gifts and the pilots would go and pre-sign all of them. There sometimes would be leftovers which would be destroyed. She had the good frame of mind to take these as well as other now precious memorabilia.

The signatures are from Janusz Żurakowski and Wladyslaw Potocki ("Spud").  Note he signed it as "Spud".





Enjoy.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 07:56:52 AM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Kerick

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 06:58:49 AM »
Awesome pics! Keep those in a special place high and dry.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »
SO, good Anglo-French names, then. ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2015, 02:51:57 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)




You know, for all the fanciful notion of this twelve AMRAAM totting F-111 'Bomber Interceptor' concept', I just finished watching a conceptual Boeing B-1R promotional video, which literally supports this notion!

M.A.D

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 03:51:03 AM »
The fanciful things with CK's idea was that there was (and indeed still is) no need for it - there were/are no hordes of enemy coming over the horizon.  Moreover, CK, used to try to say that all these mods (new engines, new radar, new avionics, reworked airframe, certification of everything could all be done for peanuts!  What a joke!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 01:17:01 PM »
It basically feeds on the belief the Arrow was and still is the *best* fighter ever built. It could fly faster than an SR-71, carry more weapons than a Phantom, and fly rings around an F-15!
It was so good it HAD to be cancelled or nobody else would have been able to sell a plane ever afterwards!

Alvis 3.1

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 04:13:13 PM »
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2015, 12:56:47 AM »
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???

The latter, however there's nothing that sez every notion has to be greeted with oohs and aahs of adulation.

If something is idiotic, it's idiotic and many folk of the Canadian persusasion, myself amongst them, get tired
of OOT Arrow fantasies and continuations of baseless myth.

 :icon_fsm:
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2015, 01:51:35 AM »
The Arrow had the potential to be an excellent interceptor (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too) and, quite possibly, a good strike aircraft (there was such a derivative proposed to Britain's GOR.339).  I could see it, too, as an excellent recce platform (intend to model one that way using a RF-111 recce pallet).  That would be quite enough if it had been developed.  From all I've been able to gather, the Iroquois was in advance of both the J75 and the Olympus 320R (for the TSR.2) and it's established fact that an Iroquois engine did wind up in the UK.  Was it all-doing, no; was it an excellent aircraft that deserved better, yes IMHO.  Certainly it gives plenty of room for whif fodder.  I can't, though, see it as a tactical fighter along the lines of the F-15 or F-14.