Modelling > Other
Technical Questions in relation to my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' please
GTX_Admin:
I wonder if the limitation to one R.530 was more about operational restrictions than purely weight/space. Specifically, was the SARH guidance combined with missile range, aircraft speed and Thomson-CSF Cyrano II radar capability effectively limiting the use to one SARH missile shot per engagement? The aircraft would presumably be coming in a max speed, have a missile capable of up to 20km range (at best), a radar at best giving 50km range but only able to guide a single missile. By the time the first missile finished its engagement the aircraft would probably have been too close for another shot and would have to go to WVR weapons (IR short range missiles and guns).
The only other option I can see for more than 1 R.530 would be if the IR version was used (and I don't believe the RAAF had those) was used though I understand it was very much a rear aspect (i.e. tail chaser) missile. In such a situation one might expect a Mirage III to carry one of each type and use them a bit like the Soviets used their missiles on interceptors. Overall though I think it would be a retrograde step given the performance of the R.530.
Logan Hartke:
That would make sense to me, Greg. I've read opinions from the French, Israeli, Spanish, and Argentinian pilots that all felt that the best place for an R.530 was on the ground in the box that it was shipped in.
Cheers,
Logan
Jeffry Fontaine:
Why limit the weapon to the SARH version when there was an IRH version also available? At least then with both versions strapped on you have the initial shot using the SARH R.530 and follow up shot with the IRH R.530.
Wikipedia R.530 AAM
Logan Hartke:
Theoretically, I know of no reason you couldn't modify a Mirage III to carry an R.530 on each pylon if you were so inclined, and having one SARH and one IRH might be a pretty good solution to some problems.
Practically, however, the missile was terrible in all its forms. Despite having over a thousand exported to the various Mirage III and Mirage F1 users over about 20 years, I know of only 3-4 confirmed kills with the missile. And, unlike something like the Firestreak or Red Top, it wasn't due to lack of opportunity. The Mirage III and F1 users saw plenty of combat from the 1960s to the 1990s. Its just that the operators opted not to use the darn thing. You were better flying with nothing on the pylon at all than bringing it along. As far as air-to-air goes, all accounts I've read seem to point to guns and either Sidewinders or Magics being the way to go.
I don't want to be too hard on the R.530, though. Up until the 70s, the Sidewinder was one of the few AAMs worth its weight. Designers largely recognized this. Most early AAMs were designed against the bomber threat, which really never materialized, thankfully. As long as your target was something like a Tu-16, M-4, or Tu-95, then you were probably fine. If it was smaller or nimbler, then forget it. Heck, one of the few R.530 kills was against a Canberra, which was much more the intended recipient.
In this scenario, they'd probably work against Indonesian Tu-16s, but that's about it.
Cheers,
Logan
M.A.D:
Thank you gents, your feedback and knowledge is most helpful!
I had a combination radar and IR seeker R530''s in mind - aka Soviet style, although I was under the impression the IR variant came years later :-\
The notion of Red Top / Firestreak crossed my mind, but I thought the incorporation to the RAAF's Mirage III would probably go against the real-world notion of cost effectiveness I'm envisaging in my Alternative ADF ORBAT scenario...... Although saying this, I was seriously contemplating a Aim-7 Sparrow / Mirage IIIO integration :P
--- Quote ---In this scenario, they'd probably work against Indonesian Tu-16s, but that's about it.
--- End quote ---
Logan my friend, you are right on the money, as far as my scenario goes - Indonesian Tu-16's and latter Tu-22 Blinder's as a response to Australia's more proactive stance against open Indonesian aggression!
So, anyone got any thoughts on my Mirage IIIOD and the housing of PS-431/A radar?
I'm wondering if the modified drop tank isn't practical / workable, if the idea of a bulbous radome reminiscent of the Royal Navy McDonnell F-4M / RAF McDonnell F-4K might be permeable on the Mirage IIID, to contain the PS-431/A radar dish (if only I could find the diameter of the PS-431/A :-\ )
(Note: I'm compound to use two-seat Mirage IIID, as it would allow for a navigator/Weapons Officer)
M.A.D
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