Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 917883 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3025 on: July 31, 2022, 01:47:42 AM »
I like though I suspect that canopy might require some bracing.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3026 on: July 31, 2022, 03:59:19 AM »
I like though I suspect that canopy might require some bracing.

Interesting. I wondered if it might require a little more tail area but hadn't considered extra canopy bracing.

What is the concern which dictates the extra bracing, Greg? There is a speed difference - 623 mph for the Hunter F.Mk.6 versus 570-600 mph for the CL-30 and T-33. But, at 640 mph, the  F-94C Starfire was faster than the Hunter. And, AFAIK, the F-94C also used the T-33 canopy.

Of course, 'my' tandem Hunter might be slightly faster than the equivalent single-seater (assuming better aerodynamics for a longer canopy). Aerodynamics would also be improved by having removed the 'Sabrinas' (I was also trying to control weight gain by eliminating two of the ADENs).

After banging together the above, it occurred to me that there was a plausible development story other than the RAF or RNethAF abandoning their preference for side-by-side jet trainers. What if the Belgians opted for tandem 2-seaters - perhaps inspired by their Fouga Magisters - and SABCA or Avions Fairey produced the forward fuselages for their Hunter trainers?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3027 on: July 31, 2022, 05:16:40 AM »
The canopy on a NAA TF-86 would be a good example
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 05:19:13 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3028 on: August 10, 2022, 03:58:56 AM »
I've posted a query in the Centurion inspiration thread:
https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=178.msg200400#msg200400

Teledyne Vehicle Systems (now General Dynamics Land Systems) proposed a Centurion update which included Teledyne's Low-Profile Turret (LPT), a hull armour package, and the TCM (Teledyne Continental Motors) AVDS-1790-2A diesel (in place of the original gasoline RR Meteor). Some sources claim that this update package was pitched to Canada.

The problem is: By the time this proposal existed, Canada's Centurions had all been replaced in service by Leopard C1s. Fortunately, in whif-world, not making any sense ceases to a major limiting factor! By good fortune, the opening of a Low Profile Turret wormhole has allowed me to push the LPT proposal back by almost a decade  :smiley:

In this back-dated scenario, Canada accepts the LPT proposal but not the armour upgrade nor the US engine. (The up-armouring was thought unnecessary because Canadian Army Centurions LPTs were primarily intended for hull-down operation - following the British tactical concept for the Chieftain.) For a new powerplant, a West German diesel with some commonality with the new Leopard C1 was preferred. As such, the 660 hp MTU MB 837 Ba-500 was chosen to power the rebuilt Centurions. This was a 29.4 litre multi-fuel V-8 mated with a Renk HSWL 123 6-speed gearbox. [1]

Top Centurion LPT prototype - standard Canadian Centurion 10 hull powered by a 650 hp Rolls-Royce (Rover) Meteor 27 litre V-12 gasoline engine. A turret ring adaptor plate has been installed for the 'Low-Profile Turret'. The prototype was armed with a US M68A4 105 mm gun sporting a distinctive multi-baffle muzzle brake.

No markings were carried by the LPT prototype other than a Canadian flag on the aft side of the turret and a subtle Teledyne logo on the centre turret side (the actual LPT being on loan from Teledyne for the duration of Canadian Forces trials).

Bottom Centurion C.20 - the initial 'production' conversion Centurion fitted with the LPT and powered by a MTU MB 837 V-8 with a new Renk transmission. This tank has been newly delivered to CFB Lahr for Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) - which formed a part of 4 CMBG.

A number of detail difference can be seen when compared with the Centurion LPT prototype. Most importantly, the main gun has been changed to a Royal Ordnance L7 piece (out of stores, having been removed from Centurion C.10s). These guns have been fitted with a muzzle reference sensor system - as revealed by the collimator mounted near the end of the barrel.

For close-in self-defence, the Centurion C.20 was also armed with a 12.7 mm Browning heavy machine gun on a flexible mount. Early vehicles also features rectangular rubber side skirt extensions to help control dust while on the move. These 'straight' skirt extensions would later be replaced by a 'scalloped' design less prone to damage.

(To be continued ...)

______________________________

[1] This engine and transmission package was all but identical to that in Bundeswehr tank destroyers.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3029 on: August 11, 2022, 12:53:56 AM »
Looking good.  See my answer in the other thread too.  That said, I tend to suspect a updated Canadian Centurion might have been more along the lines of the Stridsvagn 104:



Of course, another option might be for this to be done to the Australian Centurions... ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3030 on: August 11, 2022, 02:13:48 AM »
... Of course, another option might be for this to be done to the Australian Centurions... ;)

Interesting that you should mention Australian Centurion ...  ;)
_______________________________________________

Top Centurion 'AS22' - An unofficial designation for a Centurion LPT demonstrator trialled in Australian by 1 Armoured Regiment in the early 1980s. This vehicle mounted a MAG58 GPMG for self-defence (rather than a 50-calibre Browning) and its experimental (and easily damaged) fabric side skirts were soon removed. Initial trials at Puckapunyal were basically successful but the lack of adequate air conditioning became very apparent once the test vehicle re-deployed with the 2nd Cavalry Regiment at the Mount Bundey Training Area in Northern Territory.

The Australian Defence Force was already preparing to receive Leopard AS1 tanks and had no real interest in the Centurion. Instead, the ADF was gauging the potential of the Low Profile Turret for the Leopard hull. The object was to determine whether such a hybrid had any potential as a recce or  surveillance vehicle to re-equip 2 Cav in Darwin. Lack of air conditioning in the 'sweatbox' might have been easily addressed. However, the key concern was over the severely limited number of ready rounds in the ammunition carousel.

Bottom Centurion C.26 - DFSV (Direct Fire Support Vehicle) variant mounting a Bofors 57 mm LPT gun. This automatic cannon was very similar to the Bofors 57 mm L/70 Mk 3 arming Canadian Navy Halifax class frigates. Outwardly, the Teledyne LPT looked very similar, inwardly it was specifically adapted for the 57 mm L/70 gun and its ammunition. [1]

The vehicle shown is one of the last serving Centurion variants in Canadian service. By the time of the CF deployment to Kandahar, all Centurion C.23 tanks had been replaced by Leopard 2A6Ms. But DND's Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle (MMEV) programme had fallen seriously behind schedule. As a result, the Centurion C.26 was the only DFSV type available for deployment. Lack of preparedness was partly revealed by the 'bum bustle' surrounding a tacked-on air conditioning unit. More anti-RPG 'fencing' shielded the base of the LPT itself.

Another 'Kandahar mod' was the fitting of a 'rooftop' Protected Weapon Station armed with a C6 GPMG. [2] Here that PWS is being used to 'check 6' - that weapon system's optics being superior to the C.26's rear vision cameras. This vehicle

As the Canadian Force prepared for their withdrawl from Afghanistan, vehicle training for Afghan National Army crews began on the DFSV Centurions at Camp Nathan Smith. Upon withdrawl, the ANA commenced operational use of the Centurion C.26s. Although left with considerable stocks of spares, C.26 servicability was poor in ANA service and the Afghan Centurions were idle by mid-2016.

With the end of Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan, this last CF Centurion variant was finally retired. However, the 57 mm LPTs were refurbished and updated by BAE Systems to arm the LAV-MGS (Mobile Gun Systems) - part of DND's MMEV (Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle) system. A heavier, anti-tank variant was also proposed within the MMEV scheme. This concept was not realized. Instead, the rebuilt 105 mm L7 LPTs were installed on the new CCV-MGS (Close Combat Vehicle) based on the Swedish CV90 hull.

______________________________

[1] The Bofors L/70 gun's smaller rounds - 57 × 438 mm R versus 105 × 617 R for the tank gun - allowed a larger ammunition carousel (carrying 15 ready rounds instead of only nine).

[2] C6 GPMG is the Canadian designation for the FN MAG 58. The PWS was a Canadian-built version of the Israeli Rafael Mini-Samson remote weapon system. Later the PWS would be classed under the US Joint Army-Navy Nomenclature System as the AN/MWG 505 RWS.
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Offline raafif

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3031 on: August 13, 2022, 06:45:18 AM »
Excellent Cent / Teledyne Low-Profile Turret (LPT) :smiley:

Rather like my Abrams LPT.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg25679#msg25679

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3032 on: August 13, 2022, 11:49:22 PM »
Loving those LPT Centurions!  :-*
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3033 on: August 14, 2022, 12:47:30 AM »
These remind me a bit of the proposed conversion of the Comet A34 into the jointly developed Anglo/German Overhead Weapon System from the late 1960s - which you can get a conversion kit for:

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3034 on: August 14, 2022, 03:05:44 AM »
Thanks folks. I've got another (non-LPT) Centurion coming ... maybe two   ;)

And then, I have to dive into that Overhead Weapon System! Thanks Greg  :smiley:

raafif Love your Abrams LPT  :-*

On the RW Teledyne proposal , the AGT-1500A was re-arranged as a Transverse Mounted Engine Propulsion System (TME-PS). That freed up space for a magazine to recharge the auto-loader. A cool detail, I thought (and an opportunity missed on the M1128 LAV MGS).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 03:18:32 AM by apophenia »
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3035 on: August 14, 2022, 03:39:58 AM »
 :smiley:
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3036 on: August 17, 2022, 04:07:23 AM »
Hey apophenia, I just had an idea you might like to play with. I recently read that Brazil donated some of its retired M108APs to Uruguay.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/brazil-aims-to-donate-howitzers-urutu-apcs-to-cash-strapped-uruguay/



Confession, I've always hated the anemic look of the M108. The gun is just way too small for the turret and chassis. I think some users may have converted them into M109s, but other uses might be to remove the turret altogether and place a larger gun in the same position (like the Taiwanese XT-69 or Egyptian SP-122) or converting them into a driver training or C2 vehicle like the Belgians did with the M108 VBCL. All of these are practical, but kind of boring.

So, I started thinking, was there another weapon that doesn't have the recoil of a 155mm gun, but might be an attractive upgrade option for a user that comes into a large number of surplus M108s?

I think you could either replace the gun in the existing M108 turret or do a full turret upgrade with the T7 turret that they tried out on the LAV III.





https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/south-african-artillery-cannon-guns-prototypes-projects-concepts-etc.22573/

Anyway, feel free to play with the idea or not, but I think you explored some Denel G7 105mm concepts on the old CASR site.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Gingie

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3037 on: August 17, 2022, 11:22:14 PM »

Bottom Centurion C.26 - DFSV (Direct Fire Support Vehicle) variant mounting a Bofors 57 mm LPT gun. This automatic cannon was very similar to the Bofors 57 mm L/70 Mk 3 arming Canadian Navy Halifax class frigates. Outwardly, the Teledyne LPT looked very similar, inwardly it was specifically adapted for the 57 mm L/70 gun and its ammunition. [1]

The vehicle shown is one of the last serving Centurion variants in Canadian service. By the time of the CF deployment to Kandahar, all Centurion C.23 tanks had been replaced by Leopard 2A6Ms. But DND's Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle (MMEV) programme had fallen seriously behind schedule. As a result, the Centurion C.26 was the only DFSV type available for deployment. Lack of preparedness was partly revealed by the 'bum bustle' surrounding a tacked-on air conditioning unit. More anti-RPG 'fencing' shielded the base of the LPT itself.

Another 'Kandahar mod' was the fitting of a 'rooftop' Protected Weapon Station armed with a C6 GPMG. [2] Here that PWS is being used to 'check 6' - that weapon system's optics being superior to the C.26's rear vision cameras. This vehicle

As the Canadian Force prepared for their withdrawl from Afghanistan, vehicle training for Afghan National Army crews began on the DFSV Centurions at Camp Nathan Smith. Upon withdrawl, the ANA commenced operational use of the Centurion C.26s. Although left with considerable stocks of spares, C.26 servicability was poor in ANA service and the Afghan Centurions were idle by mid-2016.

With the end of Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan, this last CF Centurion variant was finally retired. However, the 57 mm LPTs were refurbished and updated by BAE Systems to arm the LAV-MGS (Mobile Gun Systems) - part of DND's MMEV (Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle) system. A heavier, anti-tank variant was also proposed within the MMEV scheme. This concept was not realized. Instead, the rebuilt 105 mm L7 LPTs were installed on the new CCV-MGS (Close Combat Vehicle) based on the Swedish CV90 hull.

______________________________

[1] The Bofors L/70 gun's smaller rounds - 57 × 438 mm R versus 105 × 617 R for the tank gun - allowed a larger ammunition carousel (carrying 15 ready rounds instead of only nine).

[2] C6 GPMG is the Canadian designation for the FN MAG 58. The PWS was a Canadian-built version of the Israeli Rafael Mini-Samson remote weapon system. Later the PWS would be classed under the US Joint Army-Navy Nomenclature System as the AN/MWG 505 RWS.


Can you share this & the other RCAC Cent LPT on the Canadian What If page? https://www.facebook.com/groups/228625345167056

(I'm on my 6th 30-day FB ban this year, so no posting for me again)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3038 on: August 18, 2022, 05:59:58 AM »
Hey apophenia, I just had an idea you might like to play with. I recently read that Brazil donated some of its retired M108APs to Uruguay.  ...

I think you could either replace the gun in the existing M108 turret or do a full turret upgrade with the T7 turret that they tried out on the LAV III...

Thanks for that Logan! A new turret might be a bit much for the Uruguayan budget. But I really like your idea of substituting a D-30 (kind of like the Egyptian SPH-122 mod. to their M-109).

Yeah, gotta do that   :smiley:

Can you share this & the other RCAC Cent LPT on the Canadian What If page? https://www.facebook.com/groups/228625345167056

(I'm on my 6th 30-day FB ban this year, so no posting for me again)


Thanks Graeme. I'd love to but I'm not a member(?) of the Zuckerberg Imperium  :P

But congrats on your sixth 30-day ban! You must be doing something right ... and the year is only half over  :smiley:

Maybe I should join FB. I'm sure I could conjure up some sort of 'objectionable content'  ;D

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3039 on: August 18, 2022, 02:35:49 PM »
This is about the last Swedish armour updates of the 1980s. The Stridsvagn 1988 programme was intended to produce final upgrades for the strv 103 'S-Tank' and Sweden's multiple Centurion variants - the strv 101R, strv 102R, and strv 104. [1] The object was to provide the pansarbrigader with suitable mounts until the advanced Stridsvagn 2000 replacement programme matured.

As it happened, none of the Strv 1988 S-Tank upgrade proposals were acceptable to the Försvarets materielverk (FMV) - Sweden's defence procurement agency. But two Centurion submissions were considered. [2] These were from Hägglunds & Söner AB at Örnsköldsvik and AB Bofors of Karlskoga. [3]

'Gå stort eller gå hem!' - Hägglunds' Stridsvagn 1988 Proposal

Hägglunds & Söner submitted the most extensive modification proposal for Strv 2000. Under this proposal, Centurion hulls would receive an armour upgrade package while retaining Blazer-pansar ERA 'bricks'. 'Diesel-pansar' - in the form of fender-top built-in tanks as well as rows of strv 103-style jerry cans along either track-side - would be added to further increase protection. The drive wheels would be protected by gallerpansar (bar armour) with pansarkedjor (chain armour) suspended fore and aft.

Pansarkedjor would also protect the underside of the bustle of an entirely new turret. This turret would entirely clad in kompositparsar (composite armour) panels. Main armament would be the Bofors L74M L/62 gun - the former 10,5 cm kanon strv 103. The 'S-Tank' was also to be the source of the new tank's commander's cupola. A range of options for gun sights and other optics were offered to go with Hägglunds' submission to the Strv 2000 programme.

'A Modest Proposal' - the AB Bofors Strv 1988 Proposal

The Strv 2000 proposal from AB Bofors built on that firm's successful Strv 104 upgrade. Two major changes distinguished the Bofors concept from the recent Strv 104 conversions. First was an increase in engine power -  the existing 750 hp Teledyne Continental AVDS-1790-2AC diesels were to be upgraded to 908 hp AVDS-1790-5A standards. Second was cladding the forward arc of the original Centurion turret in kompositpansar panels. For initial conversions, the main armament would be the existing 10,5 cm kan strv 101 (or Royal Ordnance L7 L/54 gun).

The original Centurion's kjolpansar (skirt armour) was retained as was the strv 104's Blazer-pansar ERA. To add more protection to the forward hull, a gallerpansar 'fence' was placed in front of the glacis plate. Other up-armouring options included another 'fence' aft of the hull rear and chain armour closing the turret bustle gap -  this pansarkedjor being 'woven' rather than dangling (as per the Hägglunds Strv 1988 proposal). Bolt-on ceramic armour plates could also be added to the extended turret bustle.

An Interim Interim ... the Strv 108 Upgrade

The FMV concluded that the Bofors proposal best suited the needs of the Pansartrupper. Although a modest improvement over the strv 104, the newly-designated strv 108 [4] upgrade was judged adequate until the future Strv 2000 became available. The upgrades were to be applied in a series of REMO (Renovering och modifiering). Each completed REMO would result in a new sub-type letter. These were:

Strv 108A : Turret upgrades (including kompositpansar panels); forward gallerpansar 'fence'
- Strv 108A1 = upgraded strv 101R; Strv 108A2 = upgraded strv 102R; Strv 108A3 = upgraded strv 104

Strv 108B : Engine upgraded to AVDS-1790-5A (with IMI assistance); sub-type numbers as above

Strv 108C : Hull armour upgrade (lower glacis kompositpansar & rear gallerpansar 'fence'

Strv 108D : Main gun barrel change to Bofors L74M L/62 gun; strv 103C commander's cupola added.

_________________________________________

[1] Recent Centurion upgrade were judged obsolete before they could be launched. As a result, the Strv 105 remained a one-off prototype while the Strv 106 never left the drawing board.

[2] Two other submissions were rejected at an early stage - one from FFV Företagen AB of Eskilstuna (with foreign partner Teledyne), the other from Volvo (partnered with Oto Melara).

[3] By decree, Hägglunds and Bofors worked separately on Stridsvagn 1988 designs. Their joint firm, H-B Utveckling AB (for 'Hägglunds-Bofors Development') was banned from the contest to maintain its focus on completing the Stridsvagn 2000 concepts.

[4] The strv 107 designation had been reserved for a potential strv 103D follow-on.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3040 on: August 18, 2022, 06:20:51 PM »
I like the H&S proposal! 8)

But, unless my  eyes deceive me, the turret ring seems to become rather narrow behind that chain skirt. :-\
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3041 on: August 19, 2022, 03:37:56 AM »
But, unless my  eyes deceive me, the turret ring seems to become rather narrow behind that chain skirt. :-\

Thanks Guy. And rest assured, your eyes are working just fine ... it was me that flamingo'd-up on that under-bustle cut  :-[

Properly rendered, that Hägglunds & Söner submission would show the standard Centurion turret ring diameter of 1880 mm - as compared with 1980 mm for the RW strv 121/122 (and even the Leopard 1).

I've got more Swedish stuff in the queue but, first, here's a quickie response to Logan's M108 suggestion ...
__________________________________

This is an Ejército Nacional del Uruguay AP-122 M108 (Autopropulsado de 122 mm - M108) at the Centro de Instrucción de Artillería de Campaña y Antiaérea (CIACA) in Montevideo. Former Brazilian vehicles, the AP-122 M108 have been refurbished and re-armed - their original M103 L/30 105 mm howitzers being replaced with 122 mm D-30 L/38 gun-howitzers.

Within the ENU, the AP-122 M108 act as back-ups to Uruguay's premier SPH - the AP-122 2S1 'Clavel' ('Carnation'). Note that the AP-122 M108 has been re-armed with a standard D-30 field piece (which lacks a bore evacuator but retains the multi-baffle muzzle brake).
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3042 on: August 19, 2022, 09:57:56 AM »
Love the upgraded Centurions!  :-*
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3043 on: August 19, 2022, 11:10:59 AM »
Just been thinking (Scary! :o), I have more than enough Centurions in the stash (How is that even possible? ???).

So, I've saved that image for possible conversion of the H&S proposal into styrene ..... One day! ..... Maybe! ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3044 on: August 20, 2022, 04:55:52 AM »
Moritz: Thanks. Delving into RW Centurion upgrades takes you to Israeli and Swedish efforts. And, there, you get a reminder that both the strv 103 'S-Tank' and the Merkava each retain a bit of Centurion DNA. Not bad for a tank designed in the final days of WW2  :smiley:

Guy: Excellent ... I'd be thrilled to see any of these Centurions in polystyrene!

My starting point for the H&S proposal turret was, of course, the Leopard 2A6. Blending Leo and Cent turret pieces would probably be a plastic-bashing nightmare. But, if you've also got a spare Leo 2A5/2A6 in the stash, that would provide a good basis for comparison at least.

All of this has me wondering: Is there a more affordable 1/35 alternative to the AFV Club Stryker MGS kit? If not, that Comet conversion kit that Greg mentioned (Reply #3033 ) starts looking awfully appealing when compared to the pricey AFV Club offering.

-- Comress -75 Kit: http://www.imaco.com.hk/cgi-bin/prod.pl/id/IMA03235
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3045 on: August 21, 2022, 02:16:28 AM »
Another source of Centurion inspiration are the King Abdullah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB) variants:

Falcon turret:





MAP:

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3046 on: August 21, 2022, 02:20:36 AM »
Since we're on the theme, I thought it was worth reposting some of your older work:


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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3047 on: August 21, 2022, 05:57:14 AM »
Thanks Greg. I do like that KADDB Falcon turret

Since we're on the theme, I thought it was worth reposting some of your older work:

On the topic of old stuff: A big advantage of the aging process is that one's past work is all but new again  :smiley:

The downside - reinforced by my old CBT3 rebuild - is the tendency to repeat oneself. Additionally, there is the tendency to repeat oneself  ???
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3048 on: August 23, 2022, 07:48:30 AM »
Not Centurions, but I've done a couple of other Swedish S-Tank/strv 103 spin-offs based on that Strv 108 backstory. The first is a one-off SP howitzer prototype ...
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Sweden had a number of advanced armour projects but not all were tanks. One of the most futuristic concepts was the 15,5 cm bandkanon 1 (bkan 1) self-propelled gun with massive 15,5 cm kanon m/60 piece fed by an auto-loader. The bkan 1 was a joint project with AB Bofors responsible for the gun and its hull being one of the last projects realized by AB Landsverk. That hull was a straightforward lengthening of the strv 103 (by one extra roadwheel per side). However, such were the costs that only 26 of the planned 70 bkan 1s were completed.

In the aftermath, AB Bofors worked on a reduced-scale bandvagn based upon a lengthened pbv 302 APC hull. This proposed bandkanonpbv 3027 would mount a modified Bofors' 120mm L/46 anti-aircraft gun (in service as the 12 cm lvakan 4501). A field gun development - the 12 cm fältkanon 4504 - had been rejected as over-heavy for the calibre. So, Bofors turned to an SP gun variant firing the same 120 × 615 mm R round. As with the failed fältkanon 4504, automatic feed was retained but (due to a planned reduced rate-of-fire) liquid-cooling was dispensed with. However, this new bandkanon project stalled at the study phase.

Almost a decade later, FMV began weighing the option of introducing the Soviet 12,2 cm D-30 gun (with the object of both reducing costs and increasing commonality with Finland - the Finnish Army having fielded the D-30 as its 122 H 63 haupitsi). AB Bofors was then asked to restudy its bandkanonpbv 3027 concept using the Soviet piece - which had entered Swedish service as the 12,2 cm haub m/63 (to match the Finnish nomenclature). This study had hardly commenced when it was decided that the imported gun-howitzer should be mounted on a similar chassis to the in-service bandkanon 1C.

Anticipating budgetary problems, Bofors countered with an alternative proposal to place the scaled-down bandkanon mount on rebuilt strv 103C hulls instead. In effect, a minature bkan 1 turret/casement would be mounted on the aft-end of an strv 103C. This concept was accepted by the FMV and the rebuilt tanks would be designated bandvagn 2C. The bandvagn 2C concept was meant to take fuller advantage of haub m/63 features as a 'gun-howitzer'. The 12,2 cm bandvagn 2C conversion prototype was intended to demonstrate that such a vehicle could function as a lighter, more flexible SP howitzer while also being capable of acting as an emergency SP anti-tank gun. Or, at least, that was the theory.

The prototype 12,2 cm bkan 2C self-propelled gun looked very much like a short-wheelbase bkan 1. At that was the first indicator of problems. The bkan 2C inherited the poor cross-country performance of the equally short strv 103C. However, the rearward placement of its 12,2 cm gun and autoloader exascerbated the strv 103's tendency to 'bunny hop' over rough terrain. Worse, when the gun was fired, the bkan 2C reared back dramatically. The resulting need to relay the piece after each firing negated any advantage that the autoloader's potential high rate-of-fire might offer. Chefen (A 9) - the head of artillery testing - was not impressed.

Bofors' suggestion was the fitting of hydraulically-operated spades to prevent the bkan 2C from rocking back out of place when firing. This was nixed when trials officers for the Artilleriregemente pointed out that adding rear-mounted spades would make already poor cross-country characteristics even worse. Arguments and counter-arguments continued until 1990 when Sweden was able to take advantage of the re-unification of Germany. Amongst the vehicles being sold off by the BRD were ex-DDR 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled howitzers. These entered Swedish service in late 1991 as 12,2 cm bandkanon 3s. The Bofors bkan 2C conversion project was officially dead.


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[1] Note the change in classification. FMV regarded the D-30 as a 'haubits-kanon' (gun-howitzer). But, while the m/63 was classed as a fälthaubits, the bandkanon piece remained a 'gun'. Odd as it seems, that distinction had also been made for Ikv types - where, despite the name, in-service Infanterikanonvagns (prior to the Ikv 90) all mounted howitzers.
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Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #3049 on: August 23, 2022, 11:56:11 PM »
I've got more Swedish stuff in the queue but, first, here's a quickie response to Logan's M108 suggestion ...
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This is an Ejército Nacional del Uruguay AP-122 M108 (Autopropulsado de 122 mm - M108) at the Centro de Instrucción de Artillería de Campaña y Antiaérea (CIACA) in Montevideo. Former Brazilian vehicles, the AP-122 M108 have been refurbished and re-armed - their original M103 L/30 105 mm howitzers being replaced with 122 mm D-30 L/38 gun-howitzers.

Within the ENU, the AP-122 M108 act as back-ups to Uruguay's premier SPH - the AP-122 2S1 'Clavel' ('Carnation'). Note that the AP-122 M108 has been re-armed with a standard D-30 field piece (which lacks a bore evacuator but retains the multi-baffle muzzle brake).

Thanks! That looks good. Any chance of you doing an M108 with the Denel G7 105mm gun in the original turret? It would take up more room than the original 105mm howitzer, but it should be roomier than the M109's 155mm in the same space. It would also offer a lot more usable range for the M108.