Author Topic: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles  (Read 29610 times)

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2019, 10:10:13 PM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.
Apparently they found it almost impossible to work the piece in the confines of the small M8 turret. Although the caliber is the same, the 75mm M3 had a much greater recoil length (and therefore the breech and recoil guard were much larger) and longer ammo than the 75mm Pack How in the M8 and it greatly reduced the ability of the crew to do anything in the turret. Even if the M18 had not come along, the existence of the M10 platform and lack of AT performance of the 75mm M3 would have almost certainly doomed this idea to non-production.

Much the same problem existed when they tried to shoehorn the shortened 105mm M3 howitzer into an open casemate mounting on the M5 chassis, much like a baby M7 Priest. No room at all inside for any ammo, it was all in lockers located on the engine deck to the rear. They built a couple and dropped them as unworkable.

Paul

Thank you for the additional information and insight into this design. It is interesting to see what was tried during the war to get AT platforms into the field and how much pull the TD people had to do this as well. It is a shame because it does look neat. Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2019, 10:37:22 PM »
Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.
Well, the thing is, at this point nobody knew what a "better tank" looked like. All of this shotgunning of ideas and prototypes, etc. on both sides, was in an attempt to home in on what, actually, was a better tank. Prototyping was the tool used to establish if a concept had merit. Really most of these prototypes were being used to inform what the requirements _should_ be for new vehicles as the groups involved, especially on the US side who were both new to the war and very new to having access to the amount of money needed to manage a lot of new armoured vehicle design.

On the American side, while this was being tried, the Sherman was going through a number of experimental concepts to improve the suspension and increase the hitting power, and, at the same time, the T20/T23/T26 program was evolving a new medium tank that was definitely better, the M26.

The US, and to a lesser extent the other fighting powers, were all going though phases of creation that required, in the end, that a large number of ideas be tried before concepts could home in on what actually would work better.

The Germans and Brits were doing this on the battlefield and getting real life feedback. The Yanks were not in much combat before 1943 so the results of combat feedback were limited. This was not helped by a significant amount of Anglophobia and parochialism on the part of the US teams. They believed, without any experience, that they knew better. In lots of areas, not just tank design. In some cases they were right and in many cases they were wrong and paid a price in men and materiel.

Paul

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2020, 03:53:42 AM »




All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2020, 03:56:27 AM »
And also this:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2020, 08:56:06 AM »
A casemate style tank destroyer and assault gun versions.

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2020, 01:55:53 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2020, 01:57:11 AM »
Turretless variant:

« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 02:01:46 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2020, 03:23:43 AM »
Both of the above images are an interesting study of the Stuart.  The first image has what appear to be additional armour on the lower hull that looks for all intents and purposes like track links.  Maybe from an SdKfZ-251?  The addition of the folding canvas top with metal tube frame is also something I do not recall seeing in any previous image of any Stuart with turret removed.  Is there a Jeep missing the top somewhere?  Or was this sourced from another vehicle type?  A nice feature to have for those days filled with precipitation.  :smiley:
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2020, 03:32:22 AM »
A nice feature to have for those days filled with precipitation.  :smiley:

Or excessive heat...
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2020, 04:53:57 AM »
According to Wikipedia, the French looking guys in the left image are in Indochina. Those tracks could be French (not Char B1 or Lorraine). Maybe a Japanese amphibian? The French did use some Type 89 and Type 95 tanks in their 'Commando Blindé du Cambodge' (although the tracks don't match).

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2020, 09:59:47 AM »
When I saw those track links, I immediately thought "French", but I'm afraid I didn't think anything more specific.  ;D

And also this:



Really wish Dragon would re-release their M55 Quad Gun Trailer.  ::) Should've picked some up when they were cheap and plentiful....  :uuu:
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2020, 01:54:58 AM »
One could try something slightly different and combine the twin 20mm from this:




with a Stuart.  Possibly even use the decals to make it an Israeli version too.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Story

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2020, 09:01:44 PM »
Neat subject to duplicate. Also, Nelson Muntz says "Ha Ha".

Funny story. Tank #64 (pictured here), #65, and #66 were on the beaches waiting for the PLA to land, much to the dismay of the attackers. But this wasn't because the ROC forces knew that the PLA was coming. It was because #66 had broken down the night earlier on the beach and the platoon commander decided to keep his platoon on the beach until #66 could be repaired. So when the first PLA human waves descended, they found themselves immediately facing armor. When the M5s ran out of ammunition, they resorted to running people over*. In another twist of fate, a ROC tank landing ship happened to be near the PLA's landing sites during the initial invasion. It was able to devastate the PLA landing craft, which were mostly civilian vessels, with its 20mm and 40mm cannons. Was this the result of the result of forethought from the ROC army? Nope. The ship was supposed to leave the previous day, but stayed because it was in the midst of a peanut oil smuggling operation.So two "happy little accidents" contributed to the survival of an independent Taiwan. To this day, Taiwan retains control of Kinmen Island.https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/ggijoa/roc_m5a1_bear_of_kinmen_which_played_a_pivotal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf 

* And the crew was probably cackling like Max Cady in a movie theater at that point.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 09:03:47 PM by Story »

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2020, 06:01:07 AM »
I wonder what it will take to add HVSS to the Stuart hull to give it a different look.  The wider tracks would be a good thing for reducing ground pressure even further.

I have secured the HVSS parts and Track Set (AFV Club) to explore the possibility of an M5 Stuart fitted with the HVSS components.  Right out of the gate an obstacle was realized that now has me searching for the final drive parts from a Sherman to extend the drive sprockets out and away from the hull to accommodate the wider track.  The same problem also needs to be addressed at the rear of the hull with the idler wheel. 

Why oh, why do I keep pursuing crazy ideas?   

***One of the reasons was to see if it could be done.  The advantage would be an less ground pressure because of the wider track which along with the C 8)  8) L factor would make for an interesting Stuart (or M8 Scott 75mm HMC)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 06:04:41 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2020, 04:05:26 PM »
Be good to see that one done, Jeff! :smiley:
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Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2020, 07:11:26 PM »
Yes, an interesting look.

M5 Stuart could be a good home for a RCL fitout as well, looking at all the other goodies that have cropped up

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2020, 11:15:10 AM »
It beckons to me as if I were a moth drawn to an open flame.  I know it will hurt but I have to at least try. 

I spent some time last night exploring the mistakes I made with the first hull.  Realizing I was going in too many directions at the same time I feel I should first address the use of wider tracks but perhaps not the HVSS + T80 track combination I had originally considered.  It might be easier to just adapt the larger VVSS + track from an M3 Grant/Lee or M4 Sherman.  The benefit is that you get a wider track with larger road wheels but then the idler wheel comes in to play and you have to address the interference created by the larger road wheels.  My original idea to use M4 HVSS bits would have hopefully addressed this issue but in my haste to modify the hull I took it too far and ruined it.  A replacement hull will be procured and I will try again and learn from my mistakes.  I now realize that I must also procure a replacement upper hull as well thanks to my previous zeal with the razor saw in attempting to take away some hull in order to add some hull and increase internal volume.  This resulted in a "Doooooooooooooooooh!" moment after the damage had been done. 

I still like the idea of an M5 Stuart or M8 Scott with the HVSS and wider track to create a lower ground pressure for overland travel.  I imagine the handling on hard surface roads would have been just as exciting. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline apophenia

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2020, 10:31:49 AM »
... Why oh, why do I keep pursuing crazy ideas?

Oooo, I think we have a potential new motto for the BTS index page  :smiley:
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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #93 on: December 24, 2020, 08:30:26 AM »
The M4 high-speed tractor had a horizontal spring suspension and used Sherman tracks,
roadwheels and drive sprockets. The M4 had 16 9/16" wide tracks, the M4A1 used the 20"
wide tracks of the HVSS M4s.

The M4 was not based on the M2/M3/M5 'Stuart' as is generally, and incorrrectly,
stated. The smaller M5 tractor, however, was based the M3 etc. family.

Data for the M4 tractor and M5 tank. The M4 is much larger.
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