Modelling > Sea
RN standardised the Ark Royal as their war emergency carrier design
Weaver:
LOL - I typed something just like that last night, then lost it, gave up and went to bed... ::)
You could certainly have designed useful fixed-wing aircraft to fit in a 14" hangar: what'd wrong with folding fins? The Viggen had one. Helos seem a little more difficult: all of the desirable types were too tall (Wessex = 15"). I think though that there was an assumption that all naval aircraft were heading towards Phantom territory and that a size limit would automatically limit capability.
Height-compatible aircraft wouldn't have removed the need for refits, it would just have made them simpler, but that's a relative term. All of the ships had significant wear on them from war usage (Indomitable's flight deck was twisted!), and none of them had "atomic age" stuff like washdown systems and sealed control "citadels". Also, they would still have needed angled decks. The 5 1/2 deg "interim" angled decks that were basically just painted lines and small deck-edge additions also offered limited advantages compared to a proper structural re-build to an 8-10 deg deck. Elevators were another problem: the stressed flight deck design meant that they'd been made as small as possible in the first place and ensured that enlarging them was a non-trivial exercise. Likewise, their weight capacities were too low for the predicted future aircraft and would also need to be increased. The same predicted weight increase meant that new catapults and arrestor gear was needed too. Jets needed more fuel storage capacity, accomodation standards had to be increased to retain personnel in peacetime, radar fits had to be updated... the list goes on and on until you get to the point where you've practically built a new carrier on an old one, and it's still too small....
Volkodav:
It would have been good to get another ten years out of Indomitable and the Impacables without too much expense just to free up cash for new carriers. Designing aircraft for the smaller hangers would have also helped the Centaurs and Hermes with more viable airgroups. A RN FAA version of the Tiger would have solved a lot of problems, fit it with Ferranti Airpass and Fire Streak then Red Top with an Avon in place of the Sapphire and it would have made a nice viable and practical jet ino the 60s or even the 70s. Actually if the RN went Avon Tiger it could have served through until replaced by the Sea harrier in the late 70s which also would have fit in the 14" hanger! ;)
Weaver:
My "FAA goes American" story uses an Avon-Tiger. Basically, the RN gives up on refits, gives up on big carriers, turns Eagle and Ark Royal (the latter completed earlier than IRL with an axial deck) into commando carriers, and uses all four Centaurs as small fighter carriers. They've already "gone Grumman" (due to the RR engines) with the Panther and Cougar, so the next generation is the Tiger, who's J-65 problams are fixed by giving it an Avon. They also take the Skyhawk for strike, giving that an Avon as well to ease maintenance. The Avon-Tiger is a big seller and with the USN shunning the Tiger, Grumman becomes somewhat dependent on it.
Then in the mid-'60s, with some Vietnam experience under their belt, the FAA decides that it doesn't like having penny packets of two different aircraft on it's small decks, so it asks for a multi-role replacement that can do both jobs. Grumman and HSA stick a Spey in the Tiger, move the wing to the high position, and create the Jaguar II, which serves through the '70s and '80s. I'm still debating whether to give the Jag II a swing wing or not, prompted by the fact that the best way of modelling it seems to be to use a MiG-23 centre and aft fuselage.....
Harriers in this world are the choice for the two Marine Corps and armies.
Volkodav:
--- Quote from: Weaver on April 20, 2014, 02:10:38 AM ---My "FAA goes American" story uses an Avon-Tiger. Basically, the RN gives up on refits, gives up on big carriers, turns Eagle and Ark Royal (the latter completed earlier than IRL with an axial deck) into commando carriers, and uses all four Centaurs as small fighter carriers. They've already "gone Grumman" (due to the RR engines) with the Panther and Cougar, so the next generation is the Tiger, who's J-65 problams are fixed by giving it an Avon. They also take the Skyhawk for strike, giving that an Avon as well to ease maintenance. The Avon-Tiger is a big seller and with the USN shunning the Tiger, Grumman becomes somewhat dependent on it.
Then in the mid-'60s, with some Vietnam experience under their belt, the FAA decides that it doesn't like having penny packets of two different aircraft on it's small decks, so it asks for a multi-role replacement that can do both jobs. Grumman and HSA stick a Spey in the Tiger, move the wing to the high position, and create the Jaguar II, which serves through the '70s and '80s. I'm still debating whether to give the Jag II a swing wing or not, prompted by the fact that the best way of modelling it seems to be to use a MiG-23 centre and aft fuselage.....
Harriers in this world are the choice for the two Marine Corps and armies.
--- End quote ---
I like!
RMs more like USMC with their own organic air and armour? I was toying with a RM ACR idea using light / medium tanks, i.e. a 76/62mm in a beefed up, up armoured CVR(T).
Love the Tiger always have, cant wait to see what you come up with but failing swing wing a Mirage F1 wing would look good, or even a Grumman / Mirage tie up to navalise the F1.
On the Skyhawk I would actually be tempted to go for the FJ-4B Fury instead, it fits in a 14" hanger and CAC had already AVON'd and ADEN'd the Sabre. Would love to have seen an AVON Furys flying off Melbourne (and Sydney) instead of Skyhawks.
With the smaller strike aircraft would you keep fixed wing ASW or still go to helos? I would be tempted to upgrade the more modern Gannet than to buy Trackers. They take up less space and would have made an interesting addition to the airgroup with new tech, i.e. Martel, Sea Eagle etc in an anti shipping strike roles in the 70/80s.
elmayerle:
Possibly re-engine the Gannets with a turbo-prop version of PWAC's PT6T "Twin-Pac"?
Weaver, regarding folding fins, look at how much of the A3J/RA-5 vertical find folds; properly designed, they shouldn't be a problem.
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