Author Topic: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas  (Read 85262 times)

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #300 on: April 12, 2021, 09:00:35 AM »
Combining F-16 and F-20


Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #301 on: April 25, 2021, 02:28:08 AM »
One Carl pointed me towards:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline perttime

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #302 on: April 25, 2021, 03:09:17 PM »
One Carl pointed me towards:
...
Oh....
That looks good. Mitsubishi F-2 turned into canard configuration.

Offline dy031101

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #303 on: May 01, 2021, 02:18:30 AM »
If so, what about snagging some of the early F-16As now in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB? Not as capable as the ROCAF Vipers but wouldn't have any trouble catching up with an H-6! And if pilots are in short supply, start up the AVG again  ;)

Can't say I don't like the idea.  How would the operating cost be compared to the F-16V?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline apophenia

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #304 on: May 01, 2021, 03:21:08 AM »
Can't say I don't like the idea.  How would the operating cost be compared to the F-16V?

No clue but many have questioned the usefulness of general CPFH figures as a means of comparison. A decade ago, the operating cost bandied about for the F-16 was around USD 7,000 per hour. Of course, aging airframes means more intensive pre-flight prep and more frequents repairs.

Of operational and maintenance costs, I'd guess that the latter is more important ... especially with older airframes. Consumable costs would be roughly the same between 'slick' F-16As and more kitted-out F-16Vs.

Were it me, I'd regard the F-16As as direct replacements for your F-5Es. Think of the 'As as glorified LIFTs being used to fill in (and train) on intercept missions. I said 'slick' because you basically need to catch up to the H-6s and wave your AIM-9s at them. If you insist on carrying a proper wartime load-out - AIM-120s, ECM pods, etc. - you drive your operating costs up.

So, horse for courses. In this case, something fast enough to cope with intercepting Y-8s and H-6s. Armed to show you mean business ... in a way that a bizjet cannot (no pun intended). Here, you're trying for a plausible deterrent rather than a truly effective war fighter. (If you want the latter, just splash out for more F-16Vs.) The 'legacy model' F-16 gives you an ideal trainer and deterrence intecepter in one.
"I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!"

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #305 on: May 01, 2021, 04:08:01 AM »
Were it me, I'd regard the F-16As as direct replacements for your F-5Es. Think of the 'As as glorified LIFTs being used to fill in (and train) on intercept missions. I said 'slick' because you basically need to catch up to the H-6s and wave your AIM-9s at them.


I don't know if it'd make sense, but this makes me once again start thinking of an F-16 version of the F-5AT aggressor upgrade.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 07:12:40 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #306 on: May 01, 2021, 08:18:56 AM »
I don't know if it'd make sense, but this makes me once again start thinking of an F-16 version of the F-5AT aggressor upgrade.


I was kind of arguing for an F-16A downgrade. Take on 'refreshed' F-16As from Davis-Monthan and make their primary role advanced FLIT. However,  the same radar and AAMs that make them useful FLIT would also make these stripped-down F-16As good fill-ins for intercept ... not as ideal, modernized fighters, just way better than bizjets  ;)
"I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!"

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #307 on: May 01, 2021, 01:16:07 PM »
I was kind of arguing for an F-16A downgrade. Take on 'refreshed' F-16As from Davis-Monthan and make their primary role advanced FLIT. However,  the same radar and AAMs that make them useful FLIT would also make these stripped-down F-16As good fill-ins for intercept ... not as ideal, modernized fighters, just way better than bizjets  ;)

No, I guess I chose the word "upgrade" without underlining how it applies here.  I mentioned the F-5AT because its modifications as I understand them are meant to deal with obsolescence/supportability rather than to introduce any actual combat capability that the baseline F-5E doesn't already have (unlike the F-5EM, for example).  Its ability to represent advanced adversaries is largely a matter of simulation.

=============================================================================

Also another question: is it practical to replace the tailfin root fairing below the rudder?  As in installing a drag chute compartment into an F-16 that originally doesn't have one?

Thanks in advance.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #308 on: May 01, 2021, 01:52:54 PM »
If so, what about snagging some of the early F-16As now in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB? Not as capable as the ROCAF Vipers but wouldn't have any trouble catching up with an H-6! And if pilots are in short supply, start up the AVG again  ;)

Can't say I don't like the idea.  How would the operating cost be compared to the F-16V?
How much life is there left in those F-16A airframes?
Were they retired because something better was available, or because the airframes were too tired for economical refurbishment?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #309 on: May 03, 2021, 03:29:49 AM »
Who says F-16s only appear in grey?

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #310 on: May 04, 2021, 07:18:22 AM »
How much life is there left in those F-16A airframes?
Were they retired because something better was available, or because the airframes were too tired for economical refurbishment?

Good questions. Even Taiwan's older Block 20 F-16As are more advanced than those stored earlier-Block F-16As. And, yes, additional, fully combat-capable F-16Vs would be much more desirable. Taipei has the money to go that route. The critical question is whether Xi will grant them the time to get through FMS approval process, new-airframe construction time, etc.

Here, we've been talking about a quickly-available air-intercept deterrent. I'm arguing that even early-model F-16A - appropriately stripped down to only that specialist role - can perform the interception role better than any kitted-up business jet (old or new). And those F-16As would be available to Taiwan much quicker than any new-build fighters.

Currently, the US seems motivated to push back against Beijing. That could translate into quick FMS approval for minimally tarted-up 'As. (Considering their anti-CPC rhetoric, Republicans in Congress would have a hard time saying 'no' to this request.) Taiwan gets interceptors quickly and, I'm betting, with more hours remaining on their airframes than the ROCAF's existing F-5E fleet.

When the time comes, leave the hard fighting to the Block 20s and 'Vs. Meanwhile plough even more hours onto those older Davis-Monthan airframes - as both LIFT and pure interceptors. Both roles serve to reduce Block 20 and F-16V flight-time (and, you could argue, 'cold war' intercepts are a natural extension of LIFT anyway). Alternatively, Taipei can gamble that they've got plenty of time to order up something shiny-new and ideal ...
"I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #311 on: May 05, 2021, 01:38:56 AM »
Taiwan might be better placed to ask for AV-8Bs and/or try to get F-35Bs given most active military air bases (and even suitable sized stretches of road) have presumably been pre-targetted by Chinese missiles (non-nuclear but ballistic and otherwise) and thus would presumably expect to be taken out within the first minutes of any potential conflict.  Even hardened hangers and the like are no use if your runways are useless.  Personally, if I were planning Taiwan's defences, I would be after the following:

  • Find a way to work together with China since the dragon on your doorstep is massive and nothing short of massive nuclear retaliation is going to stop it and even then I'm not sure...
  • Buddy up to a big ally such as the USA but recognise that that may not be enough
  • Find ways of covertly working to change your next door dragon's thinking
  • Seek mobile ABMs - be that THAAD, Patriot, Standard SM-6, S-300/400, Arrow, Sky Bow etc - lots of them
  • Seek mobile SAMs - lot's of them
  • Seek VTOL fighters and disperse like crazy
  • Seek mobile versions of everything else with ground forces and naval and disperse like crazy
  • see Option 1
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 01:41:33 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #312 on: May 05, 2021, 05:51:48 AM »
Agreed. If/when it comes to war-fighting, dispersed Harriers would be a great fit. I know that the Marines are dragging out AV-8B retirement until 2030 (at least, incrementally). But maybe the Biden Admin is motivated enough to nudge the Corps into giving up some Harrier IIs early?

On the F-35Bs, that word 'try' worries me. Taipei might as well get the parade started (ditto for mobile ABMs and SAMs) but, how long before it actually bears fruit?

As for finding "a way to work together with China", I'd suggest that means complying with whatever whim is currently being presented as 'Xi Jinping Thought'  :P
"I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!"

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #313 on: May 05, 2021, 12:54:45 PM »
Taiwan might be better placed to ask for AV-8Bs and/or try to get F-35Bs given most active military air bases (and even suitable sized stretches of road) have presumably been pre-targetted by Chinese missiles (non-nuclear but ballistic and otherwise) and thus would presumably expect to be taken out within the first minutes of any potential conflict.  Even hardened hangers and the like are no use if your runways are useless.  Personally, if I were planning Taiwan's defences, I would be after the following......
Agreed. If/when it comes to war-fighting, dispersed Harriers would be a great fit. I know that the Marines are dragging out AV-8B retirement until 2030 (at least, incrementally). But maybe the Biden Admin is motivated enough to nudge the Corps into giving up some Harrier IIs early?

On the F-35Bs, that word 'try' worries me. Taipei might as well get the parade started (ditto for mobile ABMs and SAMs) but, how long before it actually bears fruit?

Without this growing into a long and angry political rant, I'll just say these:

What Taiwan has access to largely depends on who dominates the decision-making process in the current administration of the US.  I don't trust Biden or his State Department posse to clear anything too flexible (i.e. the F-35B, which is inherently more capable of operating from dispersed locations or even ships with sufficiently-large, heat-resistant flight decks).  I can see more Patriot batteries or at most certain components (such as radars for installation on locally-designed frigates) from them, but that's about it.

An alternative is to expand highways for actually serving as dispersal airfields rather than just emergency landing strips.  I don't expect it to be popular with the welfare-state-obsessed Taiwanese population, either......

As for finding "a way to work together with China", I'd suggest that means complying with whatever whim is currently being presented as 'Xi Jinping Thought'  :P

The thing is that even though there isn't going to be a peaceful resolution so long as the CCP is in charge of Mainland China, it's better to find some way to mingle with the Mainlander common populace and generate some sympathy there.  The CCP will forcefully mobilize their citizenry, sure, but Taiwan should still try to make any future war as unpopular with the Mainlanders as possible.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 01:41:54 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #314 on: May 05, 2021, 07:31:13 PM »
How much life is there left in those F-16A airframes?
Were they retired because something better was available, or because the airframes were too tired for economical refurbishment?

Good questions. Even Taiwan's older Block 20 F-16As are more advanced than those stored earlier-Block F-16As. And, yes, additional, fully combat-capable F-16Vs would be much more desirable. Taipei has the money to go that route. The critical question is whether Xi will grant them the time to get through FMS approval process, new-airframe construction time, etc.

Here, we've been talking about a quickly-available air-intercept deterrent. I'm arguing that even early-model F-16A - appropriately stripped down to only that specialist role - can perform the interception role better than any kitted-up business jet (old or new). And those F-16As would be available to Taiwan much quicker than any new-build fighters.

Currently, the US seems motivated to push back against Beijing. That could translate into quick FMS approval for minimally tarted-up 'As. (Considering their anti-CPC rhetoric, Republicans in Congress would have a hard time saying 'no' to this request.) Taiwan gets interceptors quickly and, I'm betting, with more hours remaining on their airframes than the ROCAF's existing F-5E fleet.

When the time comes, leave the hard fighting to the Block 20s and 'Vs. Meanwhile plough even more hours onto those older Davis-Monthan airframes - as both LIFT and pure interceptors. Both roles serve to reduce Block 20 and F-16V flight-time (and, you could argue, 'cold war' intercepts are a natural extension of LIFT anyway). Alternatively, Taipei can gamble that they've got plenty of time to order up something shiny-new and ideal ...

I might not have understood the conversation - but would not ex ANG F-16ADF's be a good fit in the short term, and at a reasonable cost?

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #315 on: May 06, 2021, 07:53:30 AM »
... would not ex ANG F-16ADF's be a good fit in the short term, and at a reasonable cost?

To my mind, a perfect fit Geoff  :smiley:

A skim through F-16.net's airframe lists tells me that F-16A Blocks 15C-through-'15N* with ADF upgrades have all been at the AMARG bone yard. Are they still there? Who know?

Boeing has been busily turning older 'As into QF-16 targets. So, any motivated foreign governments will probably want to make their FMS requests sharpish.
_________________

* As far as I can tell, the RTAF got F-16A Block 15N and '15P ADFs (I don't any of the latter listed at AMARG).

"I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!"

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #316 on: May 06, 2021, 06:39:52 PM »
Had a look at ANG units and only found one unit referring to the ADF (Ok Wikipedia, yes I know) and that had the . m going out of service in '94. So only used for 4 years or so. I suspect they are in the boneyard. However the AMI leased 34 ADFs from 2003 to around 2010, so still a theoretical Wif. That is the name of the game after all.

Edit - Sorry just re read your post and as you say in the boneyard.  :-[
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 06:41:30 PM by Geoff »

Offline Geoff

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #317 on: May 10, 2021, 12:32:06 AM »
Am thinking of doing an F-16A MLU of the USAF they never operated them