Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 99411 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #325 on: November 30, 2019, 12:11:21 PM »
Read Shackleton's paper/book and it clearly illustrates the issue is, time and time again governments outline strategies / political needs, that set capability requirements and then only fund the bare minimum (if that) to acquire the capabilities their strategies / desire demand.

They look at short term acquisition costs, not through life sustainment and upgrade costs, let alone the need to be planning the next generation of upgrades or even capability replacement / evolution, well before a required in service date.  The reason the RAN got the Adams class DDGs was there was nothing cheaper that met the requirements and even then they required extensive modernisation and improvements shortly after entering service and spent much of their careers slipping behind the required capability improvements, before finally being superseded by even less capable upgraded frigates.

Collins hope was getting the carriers in service they would prove themselves and earn more capable replacements, well they proved themselves but weren't replaced.  It could even me argued that a more capable carrier class, able to operate more advanced aircraft, could have mitigated the need to buy the DDGs when we did.

According to the paper buying a more capable, but also more expensive design, i.e. the USNs Belknap class DLG, instead of the Adams likely would have been better value for money and if the USN upgrade path was followed, cheaper to own and operate over their lives while being far more relevant and useful through that life.  Because we bought the lower end of the carrier escort capability we spent their entire service lives trying to lift them to the next level., now we are repeating the entire process again 40 years later, buying a smaller, less capable ship than required and then spending big to get some, but not all, of the desired missing capability.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #326 on: December 26, 2019, 02:12:36 PM »
Question: I'm trying to understand meaning of aircraft carrier deck marking- particularly the one for angled landing decks- for a Shipbucket project.  Particularly I wish to aim for the minimum necessary to facilitate MiG-29K (MiG-29M-based Product 9.31) operations.

I included an attachment to help illustrating what I'm trying to do.

First, would a length of 628 ft and a width of 56.5 ft be sufficient for, say, touch-and-goes and wave-offs?

Second, outside of marking boundaries, is there any special meaning to the "white stripes with deck colour dashes" flanking the landing path?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 01:37:55 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #327 on: January 02, 2020, 11:22:37 PM »
Second, outside of marking boundaries, is there any special meaning to the "white stripes with deck colour dashes" flanking the landing path?
Pretty sure they're just "Aim here" boundary markings.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #328 on: January 03, 2020, 02:05:13 AM »
Second, outside of marking boundaries, is there any special meaning to the "white stripes with deck colour dashes" flanking the landing path?
Pretty sure they're just "Aim here" boundary markings.
Same goes for me.   Turned them around on Mega-Carrier by placing narrow stripe on inside of landing area.  Reverse of modern carriers.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #329 on: March 24, 2020, 01:00:19 AM »
Via Joe Warner Cherrie (aka tsrjoe) via Facebook.

Majestic Class carrier, HMS. Leviathan, R97, as Blue Streak launch vessel (after US. Atlas studies) speculative drawing by Michel Van



Work in progress ::

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #330 on: March 24, 2020, 02:24:01 AM »
Interesting
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #331 on: April 23, 2020, 07:10:50 AM »
Two idea and inspiration pictures attached.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #332 on: April 23, 2020, 03:21:05 PM »
Imagine the blast damage to parked aircraft! :o

Offline finsrin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #333 on: April 25, 2020, 10:52:47 AM »
Do change arounds including 16? inch guns delete and fiddling with size to come up with B-36 capable 1/700 carrier.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #334 on: June 04, 2020, 02:41:58 AM »
Random idea:  paint up carrier in this sort of scheme:

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #335 on: June 04, 2020, 05:04:20 PM »
 ;D :smiley:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #336 on: August 23, 2020, 04:09:49 PM »
Just a half-baked notion...but what about a hybrid STOBAR/CATOBAR carrier design, as a cost saving measure, which technically might facilitate a somewhat smaller carrier design with conventional aircraft benifits...
The hybrid notion is a shorter stroke steam or electric catapult, which instead of running to the end of the flight-deck, runs up to the start of a ski-jump ramp, with the ski-jump complementing the catapults derived kinetic energy with the angle of attack = lift...
So, I envisaged this arrangement being more effective than the inherent STOBAR arrangement currently employed, for the existing use of STOBAR / Su-33, MiG-29K, Tejas and J-15 used by Russian, Indian, and Chinese, because these aircraft have to sacrifice internal fuel and weapons loads, taking away their full potential/capability, just to take off...
My notion is that with the combination of short catapult combined with a ski-jump, such aircraft, as well as the likes of F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet, S-2T Turbo Tracker, E-2 Hawkeye and Rafale M could be used both effectively and economically from a carrier design that is smaller, lighter and hence cheaper.
As an addition, I envisage, in the scenario in which the catapult is down (be it break down or battle damage) aircraft - prodomantly fighter's could still be launched for defence of the carrier/fleet, alas with reduced fuel and weapons load....

Any way, just a thought 😳

MAD
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 05:11:09 PM by M.A.D »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #337 on: September 16, 2020, 02:44:41 AM »
Just a toy I know but still.... ;)



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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #338 on: September 16, 2020, 07:34:16 AM »
 ;D A different take on the battleship/carrier hybrid.

The red aircraft look like an F-5/F-16 hybrid with diverterless intakes. Interesting idea. Could turn out somewhat JF-17- or F-CK-1-ish, but might be an idea for a next generation Tiger/Tigershark.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #339 on: September 16, 2020, 10:05:08 PM »
They appear to have nine (or is it 10? ???) mega-marine battle-bots, too! :o
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #340 on: September 17, 2020, 09:11:52 AM »
Always liked the idea of light carriers, not hybrid carrier cruisers or carrier destroyers, but small, fast carriers providing aviation support command and control to flotillas and squadrons of corvettes, frigates, destroyers and cruisers.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #341 on: February 19, 2021, 02:57:31 AM »
I'm putting this idea here as technically it is about an aircraft carrying ship:  What if the concept of the "catapult-equipped merchant" (CAM) vessel was continued post WWII?

Now I know there were the Lockheed XFV and Convair XFY VTOL Tailsitters which were purpose designed for this kind of role, but what if something more akin to the original concept of a single use jet fighter rocket assisted catapult launched to protect the convoy.  Perhaps older fighters could be used - say Grumman Cougars or Panthers or Hawker Sea Hawks?
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #342 on: April 16, 2021, 11:46:03 AM »
Has there ever been a trainable box launcher proposed/trialed for Tartar/Standard missiles?

(Wanting to find out if what I saw at Shipbucket is indeed one of those "never-built" designs......)

========================================================================

The "Through Deck Cruisers" (Invincibles) and the abortive CVA-01 were both designed with their own defensive weaponry, but they add to the firepower of their own properly-armed and -equipped escorts.

========================================================================

Although the G.91 is generally considered a strike aircraft, it's actually no less of a "fighter" than a Gnat Mk.1, with high-subsonic performance, an Orpheus engine, guns and no radar.

Portuguese put Sidewinders on their G.91s and employed the jets as interceptors during the UN arms embargo.

Sorry for the really really late response but the Mk-16 ASROC launcher had versions that also fired Harpoon and Standard (I assume this was the Standard ARM in an anti surface role).  The Mk-25 eight round box launcher from the Basic Point Defense Missile System (BPMS) can handle quad packed missile canisters developed to fire ESSM from the MK-41 VLS, so presumably could also handle Standard MR.  So technically either the ASROC or BPMS launchers could have been used as trainable Tartar/Standard launchers.

Very interesting and makes sense to me Volkodav, hence I'm thinking if the Mk-16 ASROC launcher is pre-packed with Standard MR before sailing, then there's no need for the size, weight and complexity of a magazine/loading mechanism.....
Such an arrangement would technically give a good update option for existing ships🤔

MAD

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #343 on: April 16, 2021, 07:26:58 PM »
The original thinking was they would have minimal if any escort, there were to be the spiritual replacement for the station cruiser.  So imagine a destroyer and frigate, also imagine as from after the Suez they would have embarked a RM force including helos.  Imagine 6 ASW helos, up to a dozen fighters a couple of AEW aircraft (maybe) and half a dozen transport helos for a total of between 20 and 30 aircraft.  Basically I am thinking about a class that is not a carrier persay anymore rather a cruiser with aircraft that eventually morphs into a modern Harrier  (then F-35B) carrier.  This ship would in the NATO wotld be an escort to strike carriers and amphibious units rather than be escorted its self.  It would perhaps for the centre of a surface action or escort group.


The thing is, they'd still be a big, valuable ship full of valuable aircraft. The loss of one would be a major blow for any NATO navy except possibly the USA (and they wouldn't take it lightly either). I can't see such a ship going anywhere remotely dangerous without, at least, a AAW escort and an ASW escort. In any case, it won't be staying on station long without a replenishment ship, and who's going to escort that?

Also, having your major defensive weapons on escorts multiplies their effectiveness. If the AAW ship can be pushed out 10 miles up the air-threat axis, then it starts swatting the air raid 10 miles further out and the carrier gets more time to turn away from the attack and open up the range. Likewise, if the carrier can turn away from a submarine contact while the ASW escort prosecutes it, then every minute the sub spends maneuvering against the escort, the safer the carrier is.

Tartar and ASROC were very flexible systems that (in stark contrast to UK systems) showed themselves capable of being re-fitted to, and operated successfully from, all manner of ships. The French, for instance, re-fitted some of their T47 destroyers with Tartar and some with Malafon, while ASROC replaced torpedo tubes on many a wartime destroyer. It's my opinion that the RN's Daring class could and should have been re-fitted with Tartar, and damned useful they'd have been too!

Does anyone know the cost for the modifications to the French T47 destroyers?, so as to derive an estimate of what it might have cost to put Mk13 Tartar launcher and it's occociated US SPS-39A 3D air search radar and two AN/SPG-51 tracker-illuminators on Australian Daring class. 🤔

MAD