Parasites !!

[raafif]

there's a few scattered references on BtS regarding these aircraft so how about a proper thread ?

Been looking at photos of the Goblin carried by a B-29/B-50 & a B-36 as well as the ones carrying wing-tip Thunderceptors ...

As their fighters were always very short-ranged, how would Britain have done a parasite combo ??
Maybe a Dam-buster Lanc with a new mini-fighter ? Vulcan/Victor with a ?? ....... place ideas & drawings here ......

[elmayerle]

Well, there was the study to carry three armed single-seat Gnats under a Vulcan B.2, Phase 6.

[jcf]

While designed for the B-36, the XF-85 never operated from a B-36.
It was really a silly concept.

Tip-Tow, Tom-Tom and FICON worked somewhat better, the fighters/recon aircraft were
all F-84 Thunderjet/Thunderflash variants BTW, not XF-91 Thunderceptor.

The problem is that the concept made little tactical, or practical, sense.

The giant, 1,120 foot span, Lockheed CL-120-1 BWB with parasites takes the cake for grand thinking:

[finsrin]

That is 15ft 6in in 1/72.  Much as I like it, will pass on building a kit.
Greg has lotza room.  He would probably order a 1/48 to be consistant with rest of his kits. 

Thinking about CL-120-1.  It can carry an air launched B-36 under each wing with room left for B-58s or fighters of your choice !
Not only runways & taxiways need to be widened.  An entire AFB would need to be widened !

[upnorth]

As their fighters were always very short-ranged, how would Britain have done a parasite combo ??
Maybe a Dam-buster Lanc with a new mini-fighter ? Vulcan/Victor with a ?? ....... place ideas & drawings here ......

A Gnat would have fit into a Vulcan or a Victor I should think. They could both haul the Blue Steel missile and it was a few feet longer than a Gnat.

[perttime]

Do you count the Boeing Microfighter concept in "parasite fighters"?

[PR19_Kit]

As I've read it the Tom-Tom project didn't work at all well. IIRC on one occasion the fighter rolled over on top of the bomber and both of them crashed.

The FICON system did actually work though, even if it was impractical in an operational sense.

Translating the FICON system into the UK would be a tad difficult as the RAF never had a carrier aircraft as big as a B-36, but a Hunter might just have fitted underneath a Vulcan. Neither the Victor nor the Valiant would have had enough ground clearance to carry anything substantial in their bomb bays.

[aerospacer]

A Gnat would have fit into a Vulcan or a Victor I should think. They could both haul the Blue Steel missile and it was a few feet longer than a Gnat.

There was indeed a Vulcan concept for that: http://chestermtb.co.uk/modelling/vulcan/parasite-fighter.jpg

Martin

[Weaver]

Don't forget the Zveno project: one of (AFAIK) only two parasite projects to go into operational service and the only one to see combat action, with a surprising degree of success:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zveno_project



It worked at the time because the concept was both sound and useful: the I-16s were dive-bombers rather than pure fighters, thus giving the Zveno the range of a heavy bomber combined with the accuracy of a dive bomber. Obviously as fighter performance increased, the carrier aircraft would have grown in size in order to carry effective aircraft, to the point where it became impractical. Damn good try though!  :)

[GTX_Admin]

Given that one of the key advocates/originators of the extended wing tip concept used in Project Tip Tow and Project Tom Tom was Dr. Richard Vogt of Blohm + Voss what if during the war, as a way of extending the range of Bf109s on escort duty , they were modified with something akin to this along with perhaps He111s and Fw200s?

BTW, here is some useful info (and pics) on Tom Tom.

[GTX_Admin]

Maybe a Dam-buster Lanc with a new mini-fighter ?

Whilst I don't think a Dam-buster Lanc could carry much more, perhaps a Lancaster carried parasite fighter could be doable.  I kind of imagine something akin to the Hütter Hü 136 Stubo 1 (though obviously not a dive bomber), perhaps built around a Merlin or Griffon and armed with two 20mm cannon.

[GTX_Admin]

If you delve into the Luft '46 world you will find numerous parasite fighters:

The Arado Ar E.381:



The Messerschmitt Me P.1103 (multiple variations):





 The Messerschmitt Me P.1104:



The Sombold 344 (in original form):


plus others…

[The Big Gimper]

A Gnat would have fit into a Vulcan or a Victor I should think. They could both haul the Blue Steel missile and it was a few feet longer than a Gnat.

There was indeed a Vulcan concept for that: http://chestermtb.co.uk/modelling/vulcan/parasite-fighter.jpg

Martin

That is such a "Gnatty" concept.   

Must build it. 

[kitnut617]

the RAF never had a carrier aircraft as big as a B-36,

But they could have had ---

Finally just got some  pieces of the puzzle coming shortly to build one of these and in 1/72 scale, 35" wing span.

[jcf]

Gee, I can fly to an enemy target carrying either a bunch of bombs or a single near useless mini-fighter.
Wow, I know which I'd choose.
 

[raafif]

Given the right circumstances parasite fighters would have worked - ie no long-range fighters available to escort the bombers so sacrificing the bomb-load of a few to carry fighters for protection of the formation makes sense.  Parasite Spitfires defending Lancaster/Lincolns over Berlin ? just need to write an alternative history for it to have happened (no US involvement in Europe).

Germany's KG-200 actually flew a He-111 towing a Bf-108 to Africa.  The Bf-108 was used as transport for two agents to spy out the several staging-grounds that the US had set up to refuel bombers ferrying to the UK.  Apart from a little trouble re-starting the -108's engine mid-air it worked well but later the agents gave themselves away - their camp was attacked by US troops, shooting up a He-111 sent to find out why they didn't reply to radio messages.

[kitnut617]

Towing a fighter wasn't just confined to the Germans, the RAF experimented with it too ---

[jcf]

So what do the carrier aircraft do after launching their payloads? Stooge around waiting for them to return?
Then they'll fly slowly in a straight line so the fighter can reattach?, and of course the defending forces will
just sit back and let them get on with it? What about the pilots of the fighters who lose their 'mother'?
Do they just bail out and hope for the best? Plus let us not forget that escort fighters weren't used
as part of the RAF's night-bombing campaign. They'd just get in the way, and parasites would be even
worse.

The Berlin air campaign was an utter failure, the British official history calls it a 'defeat', so why waste more
people, materiel and (non-existent) money on daft parasite schemes? Especially as the aircraft technology
of the time was not up to the task.

No US involvement in Europe does not equate to 'no long range fighters' in Europe.

[Buzzbomb]

As their fighters were always very short-ranged, how would Britain have done a parasite combo ??
Maybe a Dam-buster Lanc with a new mini-fighter ? Vulcan/Victor with a ?? ....... place ideas & drawings here ......

A Gnat would have fit into a Vulcan or a Victor I should think. They could both haul the Blue Steel missile and it was a few feet longer than a Gnat.

you mean something like this 

[raafif]

there is a - sort of - real parallel .... Cam-ship Hurricanes ...
They were carried on a mother-ship & had no chance of landing back aboard - in several instances the pilots were lucky to be recovered from the sea after ditching.

Germany (Himmler's idea) had a small group of suicide-pilots (Death-row murderers as well as Nazi fanatics) prepared to risk dieing in mini fighter-bombers launched from larger bombers but Hitler refused to sanction their use.

[Silver Fox]

Funny... but when I think of "parasites" and fighters, it's normally something contracted by the pilots. :)

[apophenia]

And then there is the UAV/UCAV enthusiasts who would probably claim that the pilots are the parasites 

[GTX_Admin]

And then there is the UAV/UCAV enthusiasts who would probably claim that the pilots are the parasites 

I don't know about parasites…maybe dead weight meat bags...

[Story]

Couldn't find the Douglas XF-85 mentioned elsewhere, so this is a good a thread as any to revist.

https://youtu.be/JIX9BsbtiTA


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/200392644_4097175660361702_1437253777083652664_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=dsCV2n1b01QAX9GUtIm&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=0a7f76586e1c24fec6e71be8fdfba877&oe=60CB96EB

[jcf]

The XP/XF-85 was a McDonnell aircraft.



Image from a site dedicated to the Goblin:
http://www.cesarebrizio.it/AAFC/XF-85_page.htm

Loads of photos and info on Ron Downey's Aviation Archives blog, which is a
fantastic resource in general:
http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2015/04/