Author Topic: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 39734 times)

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2019, 12:20:16 PM »
Looking through some old favorite books whilst doing my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', when for the first time in decades I noticed the following:

M.A.D

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2019, 12:27:01 PM »
Interesting!!  That's not something I have ever heard of.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2019, 03:40:39 PM »
Interesting!!  That's not something I have ever heard of.

Me neither elmayerle😮

I'm assuming it's an assumption, as the book in question was my bible on aircraft before I learnt about WWW.

M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2019, 02:45:38 AM »
Hmmm...dubious I am.  Have cross checked a number of highly respectable references (both online and off) and can find no reference to this.  At the very least, I would expect a new designation for these birds if they did exist.  The closest I could find was the proposed V-463 Attack Crusader which led to the A-7.  This had a TF30.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2019, 11:17:10 PM »
No reference to the TF30 but I do recall that the Reagan years 600 ship navy proposed the reactivation of, I believe, four Essex class carriers, and the modernisation of F-8s to fly from them.  I wonder if the two proposals could be linked?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2019, 12:52:41 AM »
Looking through some old favorite books whilst doing my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', when for the first time in decades I noticed the following:

M.A.D

What book is this from mate?
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2019, 07:23:03 PM »
No reference to the TF30 but I do recall that the Reagan years 600 ship navy proposed the reactivation of, I believe, four Essex class carriers, and the modernisation of F-8s to fly from them.  I wonder if the two proposals could be linked?
Would it have made sense to refurbish F-8's, or could the F-18 actually have operated off Essexes? The upgraded Essexes had the same catapults as the Midway class which could and did operate F-4''s and F-18's (but not F-14 or S-3). Wiki claims that an upgraded Essex could operate planes weighing up to 52 000 lbs which is conveniently the MTOW for legacy Hornet.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2019, 08:26:09 PM »
Looking through some old favorite books whilst doing my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', when for the first time in decades I noticed the following:

M.A.D

What book is this from mate?

Greg it's Modern Warplanes: A technical survey of the world's most significant combat aircraft in service by Doug Richardson, published in 1982. As I said, it was my true and trusted bible on military aircraft 😩

P.S. it had some really cool 'speculative' profile drawing of up and coming aircraft - like the EH-101, Lavi, RAM-L, the sexiest JAS 39 😍, J-8 Finback, RAM-J, RAM-K, RAM-P 😯

M.A.D



« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:30:04 PM by M.A.D »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2019, 02:17:35 AM »
Ok.  I have a copy of that at home.  I will do some more investigating this coming weekend once I get back home.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2019, 05:05:31 AM »
I have been doing some further research into this purported TF30 powered F-8 and can find no other references other than those already mentioned.  I am therefore of the opinion that it is an error in that publication and even if briefly considered (which I can also find no reference to), was certainly never seriously considered.  Mind you, that doesn't mean that one could not do something in the whiffverse... ;)

Comparing engines:

J57-P-20A (as used in F-8J)
Length: 244 in (6197.6mm)
Diameter: 39 in (990.6mm)
Dry weight: 4,751 lb (2,155 kg)
Maximum thrust: 10,700 lbf dry, 18,700 lbf with afterburner
SFC: 0.77 il/h dry, 2.6 ib/h afterburner
TF30-P-100 (as used in F-111F)
Length: 241.7 in (6139mm) - therefore, TF30 slightly shorter and should be able to fit
Diameter: 49 in (1245mm) - therefore, TF30 fatter and therefore will require modified rear fuselage to fit
Dry weight: 3,999 lb (1,814 kg) - therefore, TF30 lighter, though this will probably be balanced out by additional fuselage weight to accomodate
Maximum thrust: 15,300 lbf dry, 25,100 lbf with afterburner - therefore, TF30 much more powerful in both dry and afterburner
SFC: 0.67 il/h dry, 2.5 ib/h afterburner - therefore, TF30 also better fuel consumption, though will the drag effect of the larger fuselage impact here?

If one was to update the F-8 such as this, one might as well also look at a radar update.  Maybe replace the AN/APQ-124 radar with something such as a APG-66 as used in the F-16?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2019, 11:53:30 AM »
Not sure just how much "fatter" the rear fuselage would have to be to accommodate a TF30.  The J57 is a straight turbojet and would need cooling airflow around it while the TF30, as a turbofan, would now need that, save perhaps around the afterburner (could be accommodated by scoops on the rear fuselage as on other aircraft).  You might need to use an A-7 intake as I am not certain of how the two engines differ in mass flow requirements.  Depending on when you are doing the upgrade, an AN/APG-67 radar, as used on the F-20 and on the A-50 might well work within the existing mold lines.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2019, 02:42:07 AM »
Not sure just how much "fatter" the rear fuselage would have to be to accommodate a TF30.  The J57 is a straight turbojet and would need cooling airflow around it while the TF30, as a turbofan, would now need that, save perhaps around the afterburner (could be accommodated by scoops on the rear fuselage as on other aircraft).  You might need to use an A-7 intake as I am not certain of how the two engines differ in mass flow requirements.  Depending on when you are doing the upgrade, an AN/APG-67 radar, as used on the F-20 and on the A-50 might well work within the existing mold lines.

Maybe, though one is still going to need some structural work to fit the TF30 in.

Another option might be to use the TF41 Model 912-B32 as proposed for the F-14B at one point (maybe as part of a bigger what-if scenario where this also comes off).  Reportedly, this engine would have had 17,100lb dry thrust and 27,670lb after burning thrust.  given the TF41 (non-afterburning) variants were used in the USAF A-7s, there is potentially some overlap.  Another twist would be to see what a RN FAA RR Spey engined TF-8A would have looked like, especially around the engine/rear fuselage.  Given the TF41 was developed from the RR Spey, there may also be some commonality there.

Re the radars, either the -66 or -67 would probably work.  Either would also theoretically give the F-8 the ability to use AIM-7s and later AIM-120s which could certainly be interesting.  Whilst the AIM-120 didn't enter service until 1991, an updated F-8 such as theorised here would probably have entered service in the 1920s/80s and thus conceivably still be in service until the 1990s.  Anyway, just a AIM-7 armed one would be interesting - maybe a pair of AIM-7s underwing and 4 AIM-9s... >:D

Of course, if doing this, does one keep the 4 20mm Colt Mk 12 cannons or does one also follow the A-7 and go with a single M61A1 Vulcan?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 02:45:09 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2019, 03:38:49 AM »
BTW, here is a good snapshot of how to understand the various F-8 versions from Tommy H. Thomason's blog:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2019, 05:18:47 AM »
Some real world proposals:

Canards and no tail:



Smaller, 3-gun versions with J57 and J69:


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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2019, 05:20:53 AM »
Dedicated trainer - beyond just the one-off:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2019, 05:25:35 AM »
And, now back to whiffing:  some profiles showing what operational Spey engined British Crusaders might have looked like by MihoshiK:





And one, highlighting the changes made:

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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2019, 09:28:11 AM »
Nice profile!! helpful to see the original and the changes

Appreciate the different variants on the last page too.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2020, 04:01:54 AM »



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2020, 10:50:26 AM »
BTW, here is a good snapshot of how to understand the various F-8 versions from Tommy H. Thomason's blog:



Great drawing which very much helps me appreciate the variants differences...
Thanks GTX (and Tommy H. Thomason)

MAD

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: September 04, 2020, 03:30:18 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2020, 01:12:20 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2020, 02:30:10 AM »
Why not?

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2020, 03:36:34 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Vought F-8 Crusader Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2021, 03:24:32 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.