Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration

[elmayerle]

Evan, how much beef-up in the fuse would it take to handle the composite wing's added load, for a WAG? Enough to be a net weight gain, a wash or might there still be some weight reduction? Every pound of airframe we can take off without compromising structural strength and safety-margin is another pound of fuel and weps we can pump in or hang on...

I couldn't begin to guess as even the load paths changed and that shifts everything (going through that now,  different aircraft and program, but loads and load paths drive a lot, both internal structure and skin panel design).  At a WAG, I'd reckon you might gain back half the weight you lost in the composite wing, but that's strictly a WAG for beef-ups and such.  The proper fix would be new fuselage structure in that area, but that would really drive costs up.  I will note, though, that, given that the engine bays are in the same area, re-doing that structure and adding dry F404/412/414 engines gets less expensive since you're re-designing the structure anyway.

[Diamondback]

So just say "new center-body section" with pre-existing cockpit and rear fuse grafted on around it, as you scrap the old center-fuse harvest parts to re-use in building the new center sections for birds later in the assembly line?

I could see it coming to a question of service-life... part of me thinks the Navy WANTED the A-6 to become obsolete because the Fighter Mafia runs the show. (Oh, you should hear some of the things my old prof the Colonel says about fighter jocks... speaking AS a man who once commanded a squadron of 'em!) But if the Intruder/Prowler's projected to be around another 20-30 years or more from point of mod it might be financially plausible.

[elmayerle]

Yeah, that sounds like the right approach.  Of course, incorporating new materials, or even new machining concepts (high speed machining of full frames as opposed to piece-parted assemblies, for example) could radically extend service life and require later re-manufacture of forward and aft fuselages.  I do know that part of the A-6F cancellation was that the USN didn't want to be part of the dual-sourcing of F404's with P&W.

[Diamondback]

Also another idea... givven that LITENING and RECCELITE pods have imager balls about the same size as a TRAM turret, why not integrate an internal combined LITENING/RECCELITE suite in place of the older imaging system? Especially if it's backed up with a realtime datalink...

[GaryF]

Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks

[Cliffy B]

LOVE the idea Gary!!  Add the one thing the A-6 ALWAYS lacked....a GUN! 

[GaryF]

Thanks Cliffy. Hadn't thought of a gun. Have to look into that. Think they proposed putting guns in the noses of tankers at one time but that's really close to the intakes (gun gas injestion issues?). Seems like either something centerline mounted or wing mounted ...
Other thing I forgot to ask about was I'd like to go with a different ejection seat. Right now I'm looking at seats from the A-37, T-38/F-5, or OV-1 (they seem to be closer looking to the GRU-5 than the GRU-7 included in the kit). Or if I went late '70s I could probably use ACES seats. Open to other ideas for that Air Forcey look ; )

[elmayerle]

For the gun, how about a single-barreled installation that fits around the centerline pylon, like that on the JA-37?  As for a sensor fit, perhaps a Pave Tack pod mounted under the nose and faired in or mounted on the centerline pylon.

[GaryF]

I do like the under nose sensor placement as the best location, if there's enough room. The nose gear is really close.  Center line may make more sense after I get the fuselage together and can check if opening the engine bay doors would clear any centerline installation, sensor or gun.
I'll have to dig out a Pave Tack pod and see how it might work. I've also got a spare LANA pod which was my original thought ... shorten it up and fit under, semi submerged into the nose radome. Guess I've got to make a little more progress so I can see how these ideas work.

thanks

[Weaver]

Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks

Nice to see someone working on my idea from three years ago (reply #11)..... 

Not clear why you don't want the TRAM turret: it's pretty much perfect for the night-intuder role.

[The Big Gimper]

Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks

Nice to see someone working on my idea from three years ago (reply #11)..... 

Not clear why you don't want the TRAM turret: it's pretty much perfect for the night-intuder role.

The A-6 IMHO has the worst shape for whiffing. Are you up for extending the nose? Maybe a Yak-25?

I like the idea of de-navalizing. Shave off 100's of lbs of weight which is converted to payload.

[Weaver]

I like the idea of de-navalizing. Shave off 100's of lbs of weight which is converted to payload.

Trouble is that a lot of that weight isn't in a convenient form to "shave off". It's in heavily-built components like undercarriage legs and fuselage frames where the only thing you can do to make them lighter is to replace them with completely new, differently engineered components, and that exercise gets expensive real fast.

[GaryF]

Thanks for the input, guys.
Not sure how big I want to go on this particular project but won't rule it out for the future.
The fixed wing is progressing nicely. Shoved a thick plastic spar in the wing for strength and its working well.
While more AF $'s in the A-6 program may have sped up development, I think my timeframe predates the TRAM turret (plus its too Navy-ish for me ; )   )
I have a couple of both boxings of the HB A-6 A and E. mostly got the E's to rob the inner wing sections from the E to make late model A's so my AF Intruder is a hodge podge of bits from the E with thin inner wing from an A.  If anyone is curious, these kits are really, really nice. My only real gripe is they didn't put GRU-5 seats in the A version, but sort of understand the seat choice since they are doing the E and E TRAM versions and this probably just saved them some $'s.

thanks again for the input

[elmayerle]

Just a thought, replace the TRAM turret by the TRIM (Trails and Roads Interdiction Multi-sensor) sensor fit that was fitted to A-6C's over Vietnam.  It would look suitably different and fit well; not sure if it leaves the centerline pylon available, though, as most of the pictures I can immediately google show the sensor pod on that location.  If you can live with losing that stores station for offensive stores, that should work nicely.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The TRIM package for the A-6C occupied the same space as the center stores pylon on the aircraft.  Link to an underside view of an A-6C carrying the TRIM package in flight

[elmayerle]

Okay, then it makes for a choice of what you want on that centerline stores point.

I keep wondering what could be done with a two-seat version of the EA-6B airframe with either an extra avionics bay in place of the back two seats or extra fuel tankage, or a mix of both.  I wonder if that extra length would allow a sensor fit that would still permit usage of the centerline stores location for tankage or offensive stores?

[GaryF]

Nice shot of the TRIM package. I eventually want to do one of those on the real side. If HB does a Prowler as good as their Intruder I'll be doing one as a USAF tanker, although a strike Prowler would be fun too.

[GaryF]

So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary

[Volkodav]

Life extended Intruder armed with Brimstone, APKWS, SBD MkII, etc. over Libya or Iraq. USN, USMC, RAAF, RAN, RAM.....

[Old Wombat]

Life extended Intruder armed with Brimstone, APKWS, SBD MkII, etc. over Libya or Iraq. .... [snip] .... RAN, RAM.....

Those I like !

[Weaver]

So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary

If the US was willing to sell SA A-6s they 'd probably also sell Bullpups to with them, rather than AS-30s.

[Volkodav]

My cunning plan has derailed, what I thought was a Dragon 1/144 two kit Intruder box on the shelf at the model shop was actually the Prowler 

Back to the drawing board.

[elmayerle]

So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary

If the US was willing to sell SA A-6s they 'd probably also sell Bullpups to with them, rather than AS-30s.

Perhaps SA broadens their potential support base by buying AS-30's for their A-6's?  I could see Grumman being willing to assist in the integration of them so as to increase the export potential of the A-6 (be amusing if this lead to Aeronavale A-6's with Exocets).

[Silver Fox]

I'm thinking a Prowler with the EO/IR turret, centreline fuel tank, Side Looking Airborne Radar pods outboard and ground attack stores (Hellfire?) inboard. Carrier launched tactical C4ISR.

Marines are a natural operator, but would look cool in US Army or RCAF colours.

[elmayerle]

US Army version using a pair of OV-1 SLAR pods?  Might need a bit of streamlining but would look interesting.