Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on June 07, 2012, 02:42:57 AM

Title: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 07, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
Hi folks,

A thread for your Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration.

(http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/a6-intruder-bob-engle.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 07, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
To start with, here are two ideas:

Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on June 07, 2012, 06:21:29 AM
Profile wise, I think a few Antipodean examples have been done.  I've done RAAF & RAN examples in various camos & marks including A-6As, Es & Prowlers.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 07, 2012, 08:24:39 AM
That's a lovely drawing!  :)

Grumman's proposals for the Missileer requirement were based on the A-6, one with the original engines and one with TF-30s in bigger nacelles. The nose was bigger for the AI radar and they carried 6 of the Eagle missiles under the wings.

Outer wing pylons and F-404s would be a good idea: so good in fact that they were the basis for the proposed but cancelled A-6F....

Given the TF-30s troubles, you might imagine a mid-1970s update using the TF-41/Spey.

Paint-job-wise, how about a Marineflieger one for the Baltic anti-shipping role armed with 4 x Kormorans? With the same thought process, you could also then do a JMSDF "anti-landing-craft" one with 4 x ASM-1s and one of those gorgeous Mitsubishi F-1 schemes.

It's a hard aircraft to whiff, because most of the really logical variants have actually been done IRL.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on June 07, 2012, 08:43:34 AM
Missileer!

(I remember there to be two proposals to that project.  One with TF30s and the other keeping the J52s; what would the performance difference have been in your estimation?)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 07, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
How about an EA-6G version of the EA-6B with the A-6F engines and mods?  Then how about a KEA-6G with only the front seats used and the back seat area becoming an extra fuel tank for transfer?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on June 07, 2012, 12:52:38 PM
Hawker codevelops a VTOL/STOL version complete with ogival tips on all flying surfaces. :o :o :o ;D
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 07, 2012, 12:57:56 PM
Hawker codevelops a VTOL/STOL version complete with ogival tips on all flying surfaces. :o :o :o ;D
Stol version applying the Harrier's nozzles in place of the deflecting nozzles originally contemplated for the A-6.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 07, 2012, 05:57:15 PM
Profile wise, I think a few Antipodean examples have been done.  I've done RAAF & RAN examples in various camos & marks including A-6As, Es & Prowlers.

Regards,

John

Pictures outweigh words...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on June 07, 2012, 07:51:34 PM
Over 5000 profiles, it sometimes is difficult to mention everything or, in fact, repost everything.

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-641.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-642.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-643.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-646.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-647.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-636.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-635.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-617.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-618.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/Post%20War%20Australasia/A-615.jpg)

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 07, 2012, 08:06:26 PM
Here's a thought: What If the USAF went through the same 1960s trauma as the RAF, that is to say, the F-111 is cancelled (or severely scaled back) and they end up adopting the despised subsonic naval aircraft as a quick off-the-shelf fix, the A-6 in this case taking the part of the Buccaneer? Now there's no way they'd replace all the projected F-111s with Intruders, but two possibilities occur to me:

1. Night Intruder A-6Es, to replace the B-57Gs,

2. EA-6B style aircraft to replace the EB-66 Destroyer.






Missileer!

(I remember there to be two proposals to that project.  One with TF30s and the other keeping the J52s; what would the performance difference have been in your estimation?)

Hard to say: the TF-30s had more thrust, but then the cross-section was greater and the weight higher..... Probably about the same speed-wise, but with considerably more range/endurance due to the turbofans' lower fuel burn.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on December 19, 2012, 07:27:36 AM
Dusting off an old thread... what if the Intruder II and VEP Prowler reconverged in a single best-of-both design? I envision something for the backseat like the F7F Tigercat, where you could stick an auxiliary fuel-cell in the backseat when no GIB's are aboard...

Do we have any diagrams available on the Intruder II and VEP Prowler conversions? I'm actually building this using the Revell 1/48 kit, slowly... the bird I've written is basically the sloppy-seconds from FrankenProwler reassembled and with A-6F components added, along with a mix of F-22 and F-35 systems inside the skin and newer engines. REALLY want to go for VTOL capability if possible... but I need 40,000# per engine in a package not a lot bigger than a J52, unless I can get some truly radical weight savings since I'm looking to add wingtip rails and a dual-rail missile+ECM pylon under each outer wing section. TRAM imager head replaced with a Litening G4, maybe in tandem with an F-35 EOTS and/or an IRST... while the bird's still primarily a jammer/bomber, I want it to be able to put up a decent fight against most of the fighters it might encounter in combat if necessary.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on December 21, 2012, 04:42:06 AM
IIRC the SAAF looked at A-6As at the same time as the Bucaneer. The A-6 wasn't politically viable though.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 21, 2012, 06:29:41 AM
Given the sealed and pressurized nature of modern cockpits, replacing the back seats with a drop-in fuel tank may not be totally viable or practical.  You'd likely need to be able to isolate the two cockpit sections to prevent fuel fumes from affecting the primary flight crew.  Now I could see the same airframe being used for new-build A-6, EA-6, and KA-6 (or KEA-6) variants with the after cockpit area sealed and used for fuel tankage on the A-6 and KA-6 versions.

Using the upgraded systems of the A-6F (possibly the wings, though I'm given to understand that the new, all-composite, wings dumped far more load into teh fuselage structure and were one reason the A-6F was cancelled - P&W problems as second-source for F404s being the other (not a slight on P&W, more the difference in shop processes between P&W and GE).

Outfitted with a large AESA, such an aircraft could do well today, especially if the dry F404s were replaced by dry F414s.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on December 21, 2012, 08:48:22 AM
Evan, I was thinking the backseat cell would be some kind of completely sealed system, possibly even involving unmounting the rear canopy and seats and having some kind of separate ventilation built into the metal skin-section replacing the glass. Dry F414 would be a good start... maybe keep the afterburner but relocate it onto the end of the extended tailpipe? (I'm trying to figure out if you can get enough power for a Harrier-style vertical lift, at a usable weight, while still fitting inside existing skin.)

F414-EPE with AB gets us to 26,400# wet (52,800# total), and both it and A-12's F412 are evolved from the F404, so maybe grafting on the F412's larger fan might give some more boost--but would it be enough to take a 60-65,000# aircraft straight up? Or, IF sources are correct that the INS6 version is rated at about 26,977# (120 kN), that gets us a little closer at 53,954#, but I'd still expect some loss from tapping the bypass duct into forward vectoring. Also, could fuselage reinforcement help with the added load from the composite wing?

Also, F414 takes a 35x154 envelope... most Intruder/Prowler kits are cut with a MUCH shorter-than-correct intake, so could that buy some extra length room?

And another idea... could a dedicated station for two rails and a small ECM pod (kind of a hybrid of F-15A as-conceived and F-15SA/SE Stations 1/9) be fitted under each outer wing, and/or a rail on each tip? A Prowler crewdog I consulted on ARC suggested a limit of 500-1000# on each A-6F/EA-6A outboard pylon for reasons of bring-back weight, but if you aren't trapping on a carrier maybe you could get away with more.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 21, 2012, 11:14:53 AM
Essentially a 'plug and play" cell that would slide down the ejector seat rails and with an upper surface that would fit in place of the aft canopy?  I could see it working, especially if you were careful on the ventilation and drain provisions (you certainly would want drain provisions there and they could be shut off when the aft seats are manned).

The engine bays were bulged on the A-6F to accomodate the F404 and I can see that being done on any other mods using the F412 or F414 (or combination of bits and pieces from both - ISTR that the F412, like the F118, has a fan designed for high distortion levels, rather higher ones than normal installations see).  I don't think I'd try for vstol, stol using swiveling aft nozzles like the A-6 prototypes might be feasible (or joggle the thrust path and use zero-scarf rotating nozzles that could accomodate the hot and cold flows - perhaps with a mixer upstream?).

I'd be leery of putting too much out there (I notice that the wing-fold on the proposed navalized F-15 was just outboard of the F-15 Stations 1/9 - one reason for activating those on my navalized F-15).
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on December 21, 2012, 11:24:21 AM
I once emailed Grumman History Center and NG Public Affairs trying to find info on Tomcat 21, A-6F and VEP, but never got a response from either... there any starting references about any of these birds in the way of drawings? The only photo I've found of VEP is a rear 3/4 that shows the tailfin extension, but not the wing strakes.

Heck, if it's gotta have a bulge over the engines anyway, could it even move past F414 into bigger engines like the F100/F110 or F119/F120 class without a lot of external structural change except the cover panels?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 21, 2012, 11:52:30 AM
Well, I've got a Tomcat 21 3-view I acquired somewhere along the way and I've got the drawings from the C-Scale conversion kit for the A-6F.  I don't have anything on upgraded Prowler variants.  Really, bugling the bays to take a dry F404/412/414 is reasonably doable because they aren't that much larger than a dry J52 (and remember, a J52-based turbofan is called a JT8D/RM8) much like Singapore was able to replace the A-4's J52 with a dry F404 with very little noticeable external differences.  Going for a lot larger engine could start getting into heavy and obvious mod work including, likely, some "one off" AMAD gearboxes.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on December 21, 2012, 04:28:41 PM
Figures it'd be an obscure and OOP conversion kit from what appears to be yet another dead company... looked at JT8D, but they were a little long, and wasn't sure an RM8 would fit for available length.

What the heck have I gotten myself into? *facepalm*
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 22, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
The difference in diameter between a J52 and a JT8D/RM8 is sufficient that I doubt one of the fans would fit.  I'll have to see if I can dig up the drawings from the C-Scale instructions.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on December 31, 2012, 04:06:35 PM
Another idea... what  mechanical or structural barriers are there to grafting F-15-style shoulder rails onto Intruder/Prowler wing pylons? Thinking about possibly adding them to the six wing stations on "FrankenProwler II"...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on January 02, 2013, 09:54:28 AM
Another idea... what  mechanical or structural barriers are there to grafting F-15-style shoulder rails onto Intruder/Prowler wing pylons? Thinking about possibly adding them to the six wing stations on "FrankenProwler II"...
My first thought is that you'd probably be best off adapting the F-15 pylons rather than re-engineering A-6 pylons, probably fewer changes.  Beyond that, I'm not convinced the pylons are far enough apart that facing missiles on adjacent launchers wouldn't interfere with each other (definitely something to be engineered out if you can.

I'm definitely considering doing a F404/412/414-powered KA-6B with the back seats converted to extra fuel tankage.   It would look nice parked next to my KA-5D "Fast Texaco" for refueling aircraft in situations where a fast refuel is necessary.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on January 08, 2013, 08:18:59 PM
With the resurgence of submarine threat by the growing potential clashes with PLAN's diesel-electric submarines in the Pacific, the Navy is forced to admit it's wrong by prematurely withdrawing it's dedicated and purpose designed and built carrier-based Lockheed S-3 Viking's. The USN is desperate to make up for its ignorance and shortfall and reinstate a carrier-based fixed-wing ASW capability......................... But regrettably when the obvious choice is to reinstate the venerable Viking's from their slumber in the sun of the U.S military's aircraft grave yard, it is discovered that due to a USN political decision to be permanently rid of the Viking / ASW need within the USN and the USN ASW community, the Viking's had been quietly donated and disposed of as artificial reef, just as had the USN's A-6 Intruder fleet.
It is only by chance that an ex-Prowler (Grumman EA-6B) commander suggests the utilization of the 'now' surplus Prowler airframes, which have just been replaced and phased out of operational service with the introduction (and infatuation) of a derivative of the Boeing EF-18G Growlers. The ex-Prowler commander points out that the Prowlers could be cost effectively adapted to an ASW platform with the gutting of its ECM/EW systems and radar, which could be replaced by modular ASW systems.
So it was that the SA-6B was born.
It had a retractable 'trailing' M.A.D system fitted into the EA-6B's existing tail fin fairing, which once supported ALQ-99 jamming system. Most importantly the EA-6B Prowler inherited a four-man crew arrangement, which allowed for two dedicated ASW systems operators. Enough TRAM sensor turret of the retired A-6E/TRAM Intruders were found and fitted to give the SA-6B's an effective night observation and tracking capability - which was so effective, the system proved to give the crew the ability to see submarine periscopes over great distances. The tremendous inherited offensive lift capability of the A-6/EA-6 meant that they were able to routinely carry and launch anywhere up to four Mk 50 Barracuda air-launched lightweight torpedoes. To support the ASW role and mission of the adapted SA-6B, the standard A-6/EA-6B 1,136 lit (250 gal) drop tank was simply and cost-effectively modified to hold and deploy eight AN/SSQ-53F sonobuoys each.
So it came to pass, that until the USN was able to develop and deploy their new VSX dedicated carrier-based ASW aircraft, the add-hock SA-6B usually operated with the following configuration -
  4 x Mk 50 Barracuda ASW torpedoes (on its inner wing hardpoints)
16 x AN/SSQ-53F sonobuoys (on its outer wing hardpoints)
  1 x 1,136 lit (250 gal) drop tank (on its fuselage hardpoint)

So what do you recon about this configuration for a 'What If'?

M.A.D                   
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on January 08, 2013, 11:02:33 PM
DO IT!!! DO IT NOW!!!!!!!  8)

Great idea man, honestly!!  Only suggestion would be to try and find room in the fuselage for more sonobuoys.  The S-3 carried about 60 and the SH-60s carry 25 and the SH-3s carried 12.  The helos had less but they have/had dipping sonars which more than make up for it.  Try looking in the speed brake area of the underside.  Should be some room for there for 10-20.

Only other suggestion would be to retain its other ordnance capabilities and allow for Harpoons, HARMs, bombs, rockets, etc... to be able to be carried just in case.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on January 09, 2013, 12:28:04 AM
Perhaps a sonobouy storage and launch system where the KA-6D has its refueling package?  Follow this basic conversion with an upgrade that picks up the A-6F fuselage structural changes and allows installation of dry F414s to improve supportability.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on January 09, 2013, 02:30:10 AM
Anotehr thought, how about a SV-22/SA-6B team?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 09, 2013, 02:50:24 AM
Maybe just use sonobouys launched from underwing pods.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on January 09, 2013, 02:56:56 AM
Dual SA-6B team, one with sonobuoys and one with offensive armament?  Much like the Grumman Guardian hunter-killer teams?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on January 09, 2013, 03:32:26 AM
I scaled some drawings of an S-3 and A-6 and found that an A-6 can carry about 30 sonobuoys just forward of the arrestor hook.  Normal A-6 drop tanks could carry about 20 a piece so add a pair of them and you have a worthwhile load of 70.  This would still allowing for normal drop tanks and/or weaponry to be carried and longer range missions to be flown with the fuselage buoys only.  Versatility is always a good thing especially when it's fairly easy to implement.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on January 09, 2013, 05:32:58 AM
Good idea, M.A.D.

Refinement: add-on the A-6F/EA-6A outer stations, put the sonobuoy pods out there, and you now have either two more torp stations or room for two more drop-tanks.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 09, 2013, 08:52:12 AM
Anotehr thought, how about a SV-22/SA-6B team?

I heard that, prior to their retirement, the S-3 can still perform vectored attack against submarines despite losing its own ASW sensors.

How of an idea would it have been to allow attack aircraft (A-6F and/or navalized A-7F, those kinds) to do the same, vectored by dedicated ASW aircraft (I suppose it will have to be at least, as you suggested, the SV-22)?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 12, 2013, 03:00:08 AM
Reportedly, Israel wanted to acquire the A-6 back in the '60s but were not allowed to.  However in the whiffverse...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 09, 2013, 01:54:11 PM
Royal Norwegian Air Force
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 10, 2013, 04:15:51 PM
Quote
Reportedly, Israel wanted to acquire the A-6 back in the '60s but were not allowed to.  However in the whiffverse...



These would have been which variant?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 10, 2013, 07:44:45 PM
Given it was 1966, it would have been the A-6A.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 06, 2013, 07:53:11 AM
Norwegian EA-6A painted up in, say for example, grey and white wrap around but rather than HARMs on pylons, use an antishipping/anti-radiation missile based on something like the Storm Shadow for a modern machine or Penguin for 15-20 years earlier or something such.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on August 16, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Stupid question, and I'm throwing a real Hail Mary here, but... anyone out there have any leads for data sources on the EA-6B VEP alterations? I've seen a list of changes, but it's not very detailed, and none of the few photos I've seen are exactly conducive to designing conversion parts from.

No need to link to Wikipedia, already read that article long ago. :)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 17, 2013, 12:09:01 AM
VEP?  That's not an acronym I can remember seeing before.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on August 17, 2013, 12:31:01 AM
Evan, VEP was 158542 and 547's aerodynamic improvements in the ADVCAP program, the strakes, 18" fin extension, etc.

These two photos are about all I've found...
158542. Vehicle Enhancement Program (VEP). After the program was canceled, three experimental Prowlers, were mothballed until 1999. The aircraft were reassembled creating a single aircraft, b/n 158542, which the Navy dubbed "FrankenProwler". (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerrit_kok_collection/8015817876/#)
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EA-6B_AIP.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EA-6B_AIP.jpg)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 17, 2013, 01:26:05 AM
Ah, I remember seeing something about that in AvWeek along with some drawings of the changes, but I can't say when that was.  Wasn't that also supposed to get the new composite wing that Boeing-Wichita was developing?  I understand that was cancelled because the stiffer structure transferred far more loads into the fuselage than the original wing and the fuselage couldn't handle them.

I keep thinking that this plus the A-6F engine fit would make for a very nice EA-6 variant.  I know that one reason teh A-6F was cancelled is that the USN wanted to get out of the agreement to have P&W manufacture F404s; it seems they managed a unique feat, the first F404 ever to stall.  The differences between the P&W and GE manufacturing processes and procedures was apparently enough.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on August 17, 2013, 01:33:00 AM
Evan, the official version is "ADVCAP was killed by budget despite being a far superior configuration." Don't seem to recall anything about the Wichita wing...

The build I'm looking for this for is one I've already discussed, a hybrid ADVCAP/A-6F fitted with hybrid AVEN/LOAN afterburners--not for speed, but for reduced takeoff length, going back to the original A2F sorta-STOL concept, and improved maneuverability.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 17, 2013, 04:46:26 AM
How about using a pair of 1/48 Harrier aft nozzles on a 1/72 EA-6B/  Not as "sexy", I'll admit, as a pair of AVEN?LOAN nozzles, but functional.  Alternatively, use a pair of 1/48 AV-8B "zero-scraf" front nozzles and modify each to represent a variable 2-D con-di nozzle rather than a fixed rectangluar nozzle.  You could even add signature reduction shaping to it.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 17, 2013, 04:49:32 AM
Alternatively, use a pair of 1/48 AV-8B "zero-scraf" front nozzles and modify each to represent a variable 2-D con-di nozzle rather than a fixed rectangluar nozzle. 

I like this idea.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 17, 2013, 10:54:49 AM
... AVEN/LOAN nozzles ... AV-8B "zero-scraf" front nozzles ... variable 2-D con-di nozzle ...

Wha'? :-\

Sorry, but my neural acronym recognition files are corrupted, at best, so could someone, please, explain these terms to me so I can follow what's going on here? On account of I like the (E)A-6 & Harrier/AV-8 but haven't actually followed their development all that closely.

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on August 17, 2013, 11:40:34 AM
AVEN = Axisymmetrical Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle
LOAN = Low Observable Axisymmetrical Nozzle
Con/Di = Convergent/Divergent (F-22 style)

Part of why I was thinking "round burner" was that'd just mean having to find one the right size to stick on the end of the existing tailpipe, LOL. Easy Way Every Time, that's me... :D
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 17, 2013, 12:02:31 PM
Thanks, Diamondback! :D

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 17, 2013, 12:18:30 PM
And the "zero scarf" nozzles are these from the front of the AV-8B series:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps7126ece8.jpg)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 17, 2013, 03:12:40 PM
OK, "zero-scarf" is still a bit of a mystery but I think, from what I've been able to discover, that it is the squared-off, flat-ended nozzle of the later Harriers, as opposed to the nozzles of early Harriers, which angle back towards the fuselage ("scarfed").

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on August 17, 2013, 11:51:08 PM
And the "zero scarf" nozzles are these from the front of the AV-8B series:

Handy things they are --- what I'm using on my Sunderland Turbo-prop  (with a slight sanding of the glueing surfaces to get the exit area down to size)

Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on August 18, 2013, 01:10:44 AM
OK, "zero-scarf" is still a bit of a mystery but I think, from what I've been able to discover, that it is the squared-off, flat-ended nozzle of the later Harriers, as opposed to the nozzles of early Harriers, which angle back towards the fuselage ("scarfed").

:)

Guy

A scarf or scarph is an angled cut, most commonly used in reference to joinery.

IMHO the term zero-scarf is made up nonsense, but I guess in the lingo driven
world of the military and military aerospace engineering it sounds sexier
than 'box-nozzle'.
 :-\
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 18, 2013, 01:49:39 AM
Merci, mon ami!

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 09, 2014, 04:29:03 AM
Israeli Prowler.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 09, 2014, 08:39:18 AM
How about a more capable KA-6 based on a two-seat version of an EA-6B airframe?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 15, 2014, 03:45:21 PM
Already suggested (by you IIRC), but bears repeating as a GREAT idea--probably be a much more efficient way to keep F-35s topped up than buddy-stored Stupidhornets.

Still kinda stalled on my build--finding drawings of the VEP mod is impossible, and this is about the only photo I've been able to find.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/EA-6B_AIP.jpg)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 23, 2014, 08:04:59 AM
As rugged and tough as this aircraft was, it also tempts to do a bomber for the US Army.   Just what would need changed in Army doctrines I have no idea but that's beside the point.  ;D
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 23, 2014, 09:02:06 AM
Doctrine, unsure... structure, probably more cockpit and engine armor. And making room for an internal gun or two... maybe a GEPOD on the centerline (or perhaps an F-35B/C style conformal gun-pod but redesigned with a load pass-through to also hang stores off it?) and mod the engine covers to add another underfuselage pylon on each side, positioned to clear C/L and inboard wing stores, or maybe something like Mudhen stubs.

So, let's see... if we're unfettered by Bring Back Weight on a carrier...
-Wingtip (2 stations, maybe 4 if a split w/ECM like was proposed for one of the Euro canard-deltas): IR AAM/AMRAAM weight-class--maybe rail-mount BOLs or ALE-50 towed decoys too?
-Stn 1/9 - ~1K-1500lb. Shoulder-mount Sidewinders/AMRAAM with rail-mount countermeasures or decoys and light payload? (Limited by pitch-moment; I'd say either a BRU-61 with for SDB's or a VER/CVER modified for SDB compatibility.)
-Stn 2/8 - Shoulder-mount Sidewinders/AMRAAM with rail-mount countermeasures or decoys and normal payload? (Aero-7A rack, 3600# limit)
-Stn 3/7 - Shoulder-mount Sidewinders/AMRAAM with rail-mount countermeasures or decoys and normal payload? (Aero-7A rack, 3600# limit)
-Stn 4/6 (under-engine or stubs): ??? (
Stn 5 (centerline): broad range of MERs, drop tanks and gun-pods. (Aero-7B rack, 3700# limit)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 23, 2014, 09:39:22 AM
Jaktviggen-style centerline gun bod that wraps around the stores pylon?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on February 23, 2014, 11:20:01 AM
Brimstone becomes a joint RAF US Army program with dozens hung off the A-6F/G.  Actually lots of RAF like ground attack stores, unguided rocket pods (later APKWS), cluster bombs, munition dispensers; think the sort of stuff you would see on a Harrier or Jaguar.  Rec pods, resupply pods for precision dropping of emergency supplies and equipment to ground forces that helicopters can't reach.

This isn't a USAF token effort or a USMC aircraft that needs to operate from a carrier, this is a US Army interdiction and CAS attack aircraft designed to bring death and destruction to those unfortunate enough to be fighting the US Army.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 23, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
Though retaining a carrier-ops capability Just In Case would be a nice bonus. I'm thinking keep the beefed-up naval gear, structure and tailhook... partially to save the cost of the de-navalizing redesign. LOL Jagdviggen-style gun might work... are we thinking an Aden or 25mm, or do we do a Pave Claw going for a "poor man's Avenger"?

As for Hellfire/Brimstone (since IIRC they use a common rail and basic body): maybe two four-packs per station, hung on non-canted Vertical Engagement Racks like a modified BRU-55? That'd be 48 on six wing stations, plus if we add Mudhen-style stubs or long pylons under the engines whatever could fit there. (Though those would probably be limited to dual-rails by ground-clearance in Rotate, maybe three pairs in a row each side on a long pylon, plus a single each on any stubs.) Or could an adapter beam like the HSAB's on BUFFs extend that to two paired-quads per wing station? That'd be like a one-pass brigade-killer... O.O Let's see, a bone-stock Navy model packs 18K# combined on five stations, so that makes a 3600# limit on those averaged, maybe 1800# on the added outboards... if we up-engine we can probably get away with a little more.

J52-P-409 (highest power J52, for EA-6B ADVCAP): 12k#, 118"OAL, 38" dia, 2318# dry weight. We're looking for similar size, with more power on same weight or less weight and at least equal power--either way, we're looking for a noticeable boost in power-to-weight ratio.

Re my prior... or was it Ching-Kuo that had the twin tip-rails?

Oh, BTW, all this on based on the VEP Prowler airframe for its aerodynamic improvements?

And another random thought... assuming a beefed-up structure, keep the wingtip speedbrakes but bring back the fuse-mounted ones with differential operation to enhance maneuverability or assist with thrust vectoring? (Thinking, pop the brake on only one side and you might get a quick 180... you'd need a system to automatically pop the other through a quick extend/retract cycle to prevent spins though.)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on February 23, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
I think A-6 wings from 1/32 to 1/144 will work kitbashed onto an appropriate 1/72 fuselage.
Recently got a 1/48 for its wings and tail surfaces to one day be part of a 1/72 build.
Have yet to figure out what that build might be.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 23, 2014, 04:07:26 PM
Here's some weight data to analyze, even though it IS from a Stupidhornet Brainwashee... http://yarchive.net/mil/fa18_vs_a6.html (http://yarchive.net/mil/fa18_vs_a6.html)

Idea: 1/32 wing on 1/48 A-6 fuse , or 1/48 wing on 1/72 fuse for a 150% wing up-scale?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on February 23, 2014, 04:29:18 PM

Idea: 1/32 wing on 1/48 A-6 fuse , or 1/48 wing on 1/72 fuse for a 150% wing up-scale?

Ideal for when A-6 makes switch from low altitude penetration to high altitude.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 23, 2014, 08:16:27 PM
RN FAA Intruders/Prowlers instead of cancelled Buccaneer...later going to the RAF.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on February 24, 2014, 06:15:10 AM
RN FAA Intruders/Prowlers instead of cancelled Buccaneer...later going to the RAF.


FAA you say? 
More old profiles:
(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/Artwork/EA-6A-FAA1981.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/CliffyB/media/Artwork/EA-6A-FAA1981.jpg.html)

Did some Aeronavale as well:
(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/Artwork/EA-6A-FrenchNavy1981.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/CliffyB/media/Artwork/EA-6A-FrenchNavy1981.jpg.html)

(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/Artwork/EA-6A-FrenchAF1991.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/CliffyB/media/Artwork/EA-6A-FrenchAF1991.jpg.html)

(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/Artwork/EA-6B-FrenchNavy1991Fixed.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/CliffyB/media/Artwork/EA-6B-FrenchNavy1991Fixed.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 06:25:07 AM
Also, it's worth noting the Prowler airframe grosses out a ton and a half heavier than the Intruder, so it might be a better choice as a bed for a CAS aircraft.

Evan, how much beef-up in the fuse would it take to handle the composite wing's added load, for a WAG? Enough to be a net weight gain, a wash or might there still be some weight reduction? Every pound of airframe we can take off without compromising structural strength and safety-margin is another pound of fuel and weps we can pump in or hang on...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on February 24, 2014, 06:25:49 AM
Nice profiles Mike. 

Is it too late to change the missile armament to the Matra AS-37 MARTEL Armat? 
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 24, 2014, 07:05:47 AM
Also, it's worth noting the Prowler airframe grosses out a ton and a half heavier than the Intruder, so it might be a better choice as a bed for a CAS aircraft.

How do you figure that?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
I'm looking at the raw Maximum Takeoff Weights. Excuse me, my math's a little off... but the Prowler does still have a heavier MTOW limit. (Slight miscalc, Intruder max cat weight is 58K#.)

Land-based MTOW's  for "common denominator":
A-6E: 60,626#
EA-6B: 61,500#

Unless the Prowler adds 900# of airframe... gimme a sec to check empty weights.
-E Intruder: 25,630#
Prowler: 31,160#

Okay, maybe not... but we definitely want the Prowler's more powerful engines at least. By upgrading to at least a J52-P-408, we should be able to safely add another 900# of fuselage fuel at least, right? (Full weps load means having to launch with either wing internal tanks empty--they're all-or-nothing--or reduced fuselage-tank fuel load.)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 24, 2014, 07:13:48 AM
What I meant was:  why would the heavier be better for CAS?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 07:16:52 AM
Turns out I did have it backward... the Intruder DOES have more of its MTOW proportionally in payload--didn't realize the Prowler added as much empty weight as it did.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 24, 2014, 07:21:40 AM
And I'm Mr. Ignorant: what is a CAS aircraft?  And why is it good if they are heavy?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 24, 2014, 07:25:35 AM
CAS = Close Air Support.  I don't believe being heavier has any benefit.  If anything, it may be worse.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 07:27:30 AM
Benefit of a heavier MTOW on a same or negligibly higher empty weight is, you can bring more payload to the party. Or bring more fuel to hang out waiting for Targets of Opportunity to come out of hiding...

It doesn't MATTER how fast or maneuverable you are, if you can't throw knockout punches at your targets and KEEP throwing them when you need to... Close Air Support is all about giving as many targets as needed a string of haymakers and hooks to the jaw, with plenty of loiter time on-station.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on February 24, 2014, 11:35:20 AM
Some who are near and dear to the Intruder are suggesting the Hobbyboss A-6A is more of an A-6E.   It might be reasonable, then, to take the pod off the Revellogram EA-6A tail, transpose it to the H-B kit, and come up with some 'EA-6E' version. 
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 11:39:58 AM
Actually, a large portion of the E's were rebuilt A's...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 24, 2014, 11:59:07 AM
Evan, how much beef-up in the fuse would it take to handle the composite wing's added load, for a WAG? Enough to be a net weight gain, a wash or might there still be some weight reduction? Every pound of airframe we can take off without compromising structural strength and safety-margin is another pound of fuel and weps we can pump in or hang on...
I couldn't begin to guess as even the load paths changed and that shifts everything (going through that now,  different aircraft and program, but loads and load paths drive a lot, both internal structure and skin panel design).  At a WAG, I'd reckon you might gain back half the weight you lost in the composite wing, but that's strictly a WAG for beef-ups and such.  The proper fix would be new fuselage structure in that area, but that would really drive costs up.  I will note, though, that, given that the engine bays are in the same area, re-doing that structure and adding dry F404/412/414 engines gets less expensive since you're re-designing the structure anyway.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 12:05:37 PM
So just say "new center-body section" with pre-existing cockpit and rear fuse grafted on around it, as you scrap the old center-fuse harvest parts to re-use in building the new center sections for birds later in the assembly line?

I could see it coming to a question of service-life... part of me thinks the Navy WANTED the A-6 to become obsolete because the Fighter Mafia runs the show. (Oh, you should hear some of the things my old prof the Colonel says about fighter jocks... speaking AS a man who once commanded a squadron of 'em!) But if the Intruder/Prowler's projected to be around another 20-30 years or more from point of mod it might be financially plausible.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 24, 2014, 12:13:00 PM
Yeah, that sounds like the right approach.  Of course, incorporating new materials, or even new machining concepts (high speed machining of full frames as opposed to piece-parted assemblies, for example) could radically extend service life and require later re-manufacture of forward and aft fuselages.  I do know that part of the A-6F cancellation was that the USN didn't want to be part of the dual-sourcing of F404's with P&W.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Diamondback on February 24, 2014, 12:39:58 PM
Also another idea... givven that LITENING and RECCELITE pods have imager balls about the same size as a TRAM turret, why not integrate an internal combined LITENING/RECCELITE suite in place of the older imaging system? Especially if it's backed up with a realtime datalink...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 15, 2015, 03:24:21 PM
Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on April 16, 2015, 12:02:21 AM
LOVE the idea Gary!!  Add the one thing the A-6 ALWAYS lacked....a GUN!  8)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 16, 2015, 05:49:49 AM
Thanks Cliffy. Hadn't thought of a gun. Have to look into that. Think they proposed putting guns in the noses of tankers at one time but that's really close to the intakes (gun gas injestion issues?). Seems like either something centerline mounted or wing mounted ...
Other thing I forgot to ask about was I'd like to go with a different ejection seat. Right now I'm looking at seats from the A-37, T-38/F-5, or OV-1 (they seem to be closer looking to the GRU-5 than the GRU-7 included in the kit). Or if I went late '70s I could probably use ACES seats. Open to other ideas for that Air Forcey look ; )
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 16, 2015, 06:46:19 AM
For the gun, how about a single-barreled installation that fits around the centerline pylon, like that on the JA-37?  As for a sensor fit, perhaps a Pave Tack pod mounted under the nose and faired in or mounted on the centerline pylon.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 16, 2015, 07:57:51 AM
I do like the under nose sensor placement as the best location, if there's enough room. The nose gear is really close.  Center line may make more sense after I get the fuselage together and can check if opening the engine bay doors would clear any centerline installation, sensor or gun.
I'll have to dig out a Pave Tack pod and see how it might work. I've also got a spare LANA pod which was my original thought ... shorten it up and fit under, semi submerged into the nose radome. Guess I've got to make a little more progress so I can see how these ideas work.

thanks
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 16, 2015, 08:29:38 AM
Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks


Nice to see someone working on my idea from three years ago (reply #11).....  ;D

Not clear why you don't want the TRAM turret: it's pretty much perfect for the night-intuder role.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 16, 2015, 08:43:36 AM
Looking for some ideas ... basic premise is  F-111 problems lead to the A-6 winding up in USAF service during the 70's.  A basic A model with SEA camo would be pretty easy but was also thinking about a dedicated night striker, sort of follow on for B-57G capability.
I'm working from the HobbyBoss Intruder kit.
I'm fixing the wing as non folding by removing the wingfold and adding a third pylon ala the EA-6A.
Removing the tow link from the nose strut. Not sure on keeping the tail hook.
Really trying to figure out the night sensor suite.  Don't want to use the TRAM turret. Always liked the B-57G sensor chin but won't work here as it would mess up air into the engine inlets.  I'd like to keep the centerline pylon available for drop tank. Which leaves something like a forward facing pod built into the nose radome or something like TISEO sensor(s) built into one or two of the wing pylons.  Or, any other ideas out there?
Probably going to hang GBU-8's for the load out and jammer pod(s) and or Sidewinders on the new outboard pylons.
Any other specific detail ides welcome,

thanks


Nice to see someone working on my idea from three years ago (reply #11).....  ;D

Not clear why you don't want the TRAM turret: it's pretty much perfect for the night-intuder role.

The A-6 IMHO has the worst shape for whiffing. Are you up for extending the nose? Maybe a Yak-25?

I like the idea of de-navalizing. Shave off 100's of lbs of weight which is converted to payload.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 16, 2015, 09:39:58 AM
I like the idea of de-navalizing. Shave off 100's of lbs of weight which is converted to payload.

Trouble is that a lot of that weight isn't in a convenient form to "shave off". It's in heavily-built components like undercarriage legs and fuselage frames where the only thing you can do to make them lighter is to replace them with completely new, differently engineered components, and that exercise gets expensive real fast.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 16, 2015, 09:50:23 AM
Thanks for the input, guys.
Not sure how big I want to go on this particular project but won't rule it out for the future.
The fixed wing is progressing nicely. Shoved a thick plastic spar in the wing for strength and its working well.
While more AF $'s in the A-6 program may have sped up development, I think my timeframe predates the TRAM turret (plus its too Navy-ish for me ; )   )
I have a couple of both boxings of the HB A-6 A and E. mostly got the E's to rob the inner wing sections from the E to make late model A's so my AF Intruder is a hodge podge of bits from the E with thin inner wing from an A.  If anyone is curious, these kits are really, really nice. My only real gripe is they didn't put GRU-5 seats in the A version, but sort of understand the seat choice since they are doing the E and E TRAM versions and this probably just saved them some $'s.

thanks again for the input
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 16, 2015, 11:14:51 AM
Just a thought, replace the TRAM turret by the TRIM (Trails and Roads Interdiction Multi-sensor) sensor fit that was fitted to A-6C's over Vietnam.  It would look suitably different and fit well; not sure if it leaves the centerline pylon available, though, as most of the pictures I can immediately google show the sensor pod on that location.  If you can live with losing that stores station for offensive stores, that should work nicely.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 16, 2015, 11:24:02 AM
The TRIM package for the A-6C occupied the same space as the center stores pylon on the aircraft.  Link to an underside view of an A-6C carrying the TRIM package in flight (http://www.portierramaryaire.com/fichas/a6_3.php)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 16, 2015, 11:39:25 AM
Okay, then it makes for a choice of what you want on that centerline stores point.

I keep wondering what could be done with a two-seat version of the EA-6B airframe with either an extra avionics bay in place of the back two seats or extra fuel tankage, or a mix of both.  I wonder if that extra length would allow a sensor fit that would still permit usage of the centerline stores location for tankage or offensive stores?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 16, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
Nice shot of the TRIM package. I eventually want to do one of those on the real side. If HB does a Prowler as good as their Intruder I'll be doing one as a USAF tanker, although a strike Prowler would be fun too.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GaryF on April 19, 2015, 02:11:09 PM
So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on May 18, 2015, 07:49:32 PM
Life extended Intruder armed with Brimstone, APKWS, SBD MkII, etc. over Libya or Iraq. USN, USMC, RAAF, RAN, RAM.....
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on May 18, 2015, 10:55:40 PM
Life extended Intruder armed with Brimstone, APKWS, SBD MkII, etc. over Libya or Iraq. .... [snip] .... RAN, RAM.....

Those I like ! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2015, 04:38:21 AM
So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary

If the US was willing to sell SA A-6s they 'd probably also sell Bullpups to with them, rather than AS-30s.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on May 19, 2015, 09:42:57 PM
My cunning plan has derailed, what I thought was a Dragon 1/144 two kit Intruder box on the shelf at the model shop was actually the Prowler  :(

Back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 20, 2015, 01:34:44 AM
So earlier in this thread someone mentioned the SAAF had an interest in the Intruder. Any one got more info on this?  Spent last night looking at SAAF Buccaneer pics and wondering how nice an A-6 would look in those colors with 4x AS-30's or a load of M117s.
Any other thought about a SAAF Intruder?

Gary

If the US was willing to sell SA A-6s they 'd probably also sell Bullpups to with them, rather than AS-30s.
Perhaps SA broadens their potential support base by buying AS-30's for their A-6's?  I could see Grumman being willing to assist in the integration of them so as to increase the export potential of the A-6 (be amusing if this lead to Aeronavale A-6's with Exocets).
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Silver Fox on May 21, 2015, 12:01:13 AM
I'm thinking a Prowler with the EO/IR turret, centreline fuel tank, Side Looking Airborne Radar pods outboard and ground attack stores (Hellfire?) inboard. Carrier launched tactical C4ISR.

Marines are a natural operator, but would look cool in US Army or RCAF colours.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 21, 2015, 10:15:30 AM
US Army version using a pair of OV-1 SLAR pods?  Might need a bit of streamlining but would look interesting.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: taiidantomcat on November 24, 2016, 03:08:17 AM
(http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/va-3/va-3-attacker.gif)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw73pfXCMAAS7_Z.png)



Macross Va-3 Invader
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on November 24, 2016, 07:21:40 AM
I scaled some drawings of an S-3 and A-6 and found that an A-6 can carry about 30 sonobuoys just forward of the arrestor hook.  Normal A-6 drop tanks could carry about 20 a piece so add a pair of them and you have a worthwhile load of 70.  This would still allowing for normal drop tanks and/or weaponry to be carried and longer range missions to be flown with the fuselage buoys only.  Versatility is always a good thing especially when it's fairly easy to implement.
Sorry, missed this Cliffy B :P
That's some serious effort mate!!

Thanks

M.A.D
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on November 24, 2016, 02:21:38 PM
How about an unmanned tanker version for the USN, perhaps even returned from the graveyard, re-engined, re-winged and filled to the brim with fuel.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on November 25, 2016, 04:05:26 AM
Perhaps made from a Prowler, with the longer fuse? Wiki says that's an extra 5ft of fuel...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2016, 03:21:08 AM
If the A-6F had made it to service I wonder if we would have seen an EA-6G "Growler"...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2016, 03:24:02 AM
How about an unmanned tanker version for the USN, perhaps even returned from the graveyard, re-engined, re-winged and filled to the brim with fuel.

Perhaps made from a Prowler, with the longer fuse? Wiki says that's an extra 5ft of fuel...

I like your thinking.  A KQ-6 uninhabited carrier based tanker would be cool.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2016, 03:56:47 AM
Single seat Intruder anyone:  A-6B Proposal for USN VAL (light attack aircraft carrier) requirement which was eventually won by LTV's A-7:

(http://www.afwing.com/intro/a6_intruder/Single_Seat_A-6_Mockup.jpg)(http://www.afwing.com/intro/a6_intruder/val_cas.jpg)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on November 26, 2016, 04:36:25 AM
Never knew of of this proposal. Did Grumman make the fuselage narrower but keep the wings and tail?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on November 26, 2016, 04:51:28 AM
Looks like the upper fuselage is narrower and the radome is much smaller. Of course, the pic looks like a mock up so hard to say.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2016, 04:54:09 AM
See here (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,143.0/all.html) for more info and pics
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on November 28, 2016, 03:41:06 AM
I like your thinking.  A KQ-6 uninhabited carrier based tanker would be cool.
I found a 1/72 Hasegawa Prowler on Saturday but I didn't have enough for it. One day...
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: taiidantomcat on January 16, 2017, 04:37:07 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/279/32181147132_6d228984a1_b.jpg)

Just a quick and dirty while the kid naps
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 16, 2017, 11:45:18 AM
I like it! I'd swap out the vertical stab for a standard one for looks.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on January 16, 2017, 12:02:41 PM
I like it! I'd swap out the vertical stab for a standard one for looks.
I'll agree on that swap for a KA-6B or whatever you'd call it.
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 16, 2017, 05:15:10 PM
How about a V-tailed version?
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 01:23:48 AM
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-79989-0-05005700-1485423496.jpg)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 28, 2020, 03:03:07 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/IDFA-6IINTRUDER03.jpg&key=1fcd93e041f1737545bed701a1d2b2bc3cec09c2ed9674b658f1b4fc8220d098)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:29:31 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/BAFA-6EINTRUDER01_zpsd17fb0c0.jpg&key=8d6377fdebc09903dfc36a1ef001636cb74922f84de250011c215f240da1eb3a)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2020, 01:30:54 AM
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_2018_01/img00155.thumb.JPG.767f0090762bbd45a12754f3f8d3ab44.JPG)
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on October 05, 2020, 03:04:31 AM
([url]https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/IDFA-6IINTRUDER03.jpg&key=1fcd93e041f1737545bed701a1d2b2bc3cec09c2ed9674b658f1b4fc8220d098[/url])


I think it's been stated before, but didn't Israel actually request tge Intruder in the early US/Israel courtship?

MAD
Title: Re: Grumman A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2020, 03:14:21 AM
Yep:  https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/israels-request-for-a-6-intruder-in-1966.13785/ (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/israels-request-for-a-6-intruder-in-1966.13785/)