Modelling > Engineering Dept.
More HIMARS for Ukraine?
apophenia:
I'm not sure if this qualifies as an 'Engineering' question ... but, I've been pondering HIMARS in Ukraine and need a reality check.
Background: The ZSU has been making good use of HIMARS in Ukraine. So far, 20 x M142 have been delivered to Ukraine - along with 10 x tracked M270 MLRS (given by the UK and Germany). The US has promised a further 18 x HIMARS but these will not be delivered for several years.
So, not looking US gift horses' in their mouths ... but are there any other options?
Something that struck me is how many relatively low-mileage FMTVs are on offer for sale to civilians as surplus. Some of those surplus vehicles will have been beat overseas, others seem to have been sitting stateside in storage for most of their service lives. With careful selection, could not some of those trucks be weeded out for donation to Ukraine?
I am aware that the M142 chassis for HIMARS has a longer wheelbase than that of a base cargo FMTV. So, my object here is not to light a fire under Lockheed Martin for production conversions. Rather, I'm wondering if a much simplified HIMARS variant might be quickly derived?
My premise is this: Those surplus M1083 FMTVs are roughly analogous to the heavier M142 chassis. Reducing weight would be a priority. Some of the M142's extra ~6 tonnes comes (I assume) from HIMARS' hoist loading mechanisms. That leads to my first question:
Q: Could an M142's rack-mounted 'Six Pack' be safely fired outside of the HIMARS 'box'?
If so, my concept is to mount a single reload 'Six Pack' of GMLRS rockets to an elevating mechanism on the rear of the M1083's cargo deck. (On the attached image, I've used the Ukrainian BM-21 Bastion-1 elevating mechanism.) [1] In contrast with HIMARS' precision front-loading, I am imagining the 'Six Pack' crates simply being slung onto the mount using a rear echelon crane.
The upside would be minimal mods needed for the surplus M1083. [2] The obvious downside is a halved payload compared with the M142. And that brings up the next question:
Q: With current 'shoot-and-scoot' tactics, how often do operational HIMARS fire all twelve missiles? In other words, is having only six rounds actually a major disadvantage?
Any critique this notion (or alternative suggestions) would be most appreciated.
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[1] I'm also aware that the HIMARS 'box' contains various electronic gubbins. Are these to do with targetting? If so, could such 'black boxes' be cable-connected from a support vehicle?
[2] I've shown the M1083 with a standard FMTV cab (I'm assuming that US doesn't want to give away too many of their Oshkosh Low Signature Armored Cabs (or the LSAC's LM equivalent from the M142). Since the ZSU relies heavily on Starlink, I have plonked one of their mobile antennas on the cab's roof.
Frank3k:
I think getting the HIMARS or MRLS pods in quantity is a bigger issue, but assuming you can order them in bulk from Amazon and the main shortage is the vehicle... The Russians have "donated" a few KamAZ-5350 and you could come up with a way of liberating a good supply. The KamAZ-5350 is similar to the FMTV in specs.
apophenia:
Thanks for that Frank. Yes, there are a bunch of ex-RU Kamaz 5350s - some of which are already equipped as BM-21 Grad MLRS. I had another reason for zeroing-in on LMTV/FMTV variants (which I'll go into in my Profiles thread).
Ignoring whatever MLRS supply qualms exist in the Biden Administration, I suspect that another issue is that Kyiv is requesting more and more HIMARS just as the US military tries to double its own fleet. Meanwhile, HIMARS orders have come in from Taiwan, Romania, and probably other places. Meanwhile, the DoD seems to be looking for potential future HIMARS suppliers beyond LM Grand Prairie.
Since the ZSU has momentum in the field right now, obviously, Kyiv doesn't want to wait years for supply of new-production HIMARS. But, questions about supply and suppliers makes it tougher to stay within the brief of the Engineering Dept.
I had wondered about the availability of M30 series reloads for Ukraine's HIMARS and M270 MLRS. [1] I suspect that the British Army and Bundeswehr might be able to supply some additional rounds [2] from their M270s ... but that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the estimated 5,800 GMLRS rounds per month that the ZSU is firing. In any case, if the US is not in a position to readily supply GMLRS reloads, then the whole question of HIMARS in Ukraine is moot.
Anyway, if LM and/or US quartermasters can't keep pace with M30 GMLRS resupply in wartime, this does not bode well for the US Army, USMC, or foreign customers for HIMARS or the M270.
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[1] The Drive was warning about potential shortages of M30 rounds as far back as July 2022.
-- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/are-there-enough-guided-rockets-for-himars-to-keep-up-with-ukraine-war-demand
[2] To comply with the CCM, Germany scrapped its M26 rounds (and, I assume, the UK did too). I wonder if that meant just the sub-munitions and their housings. If so, would the rockets themselves have then been converted into M30 and M31 rounds?
apophenia:
After a bit more digging, I've come up with a few more details...
1 - Something in the order of 50,000 x GMLRS rounds have been made so far.
2 - Further GMLRS rounds for HIMARS are included in the latest round of 'lethal aid' for Ukraine,
-- https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/11/23/us-to-send-anti-drone-machine-guns-air-defense-ammunition-to-ukraine/
That aid package also includes Excalibur rounds and "more than 100 light tactical vehicles" (which I assume includes LMTVs).
3 - The AT2 launch packs for HIMARS (and the M270) can be mounted by themselves.
LTV had proposed doing just that as their 'Lightweight LW-MLRS mounted on a Standard Manufacturing Co. 8x8 carrier or a trailer (see attached image).
- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/m270-mlrs-and-m142-himars-developments.39660/page-2#post-546380
Most of the recent DOD news regarding HIMARS - 21 Oct and 02 Nov - had to do with replenishing US Army stocks rather than further supplies to Ukraine. BTW, I previously mentioned LM Grand Prairie. Actually, HIMARS and GMLRS are made at LM's Camden, Arkansas plant.
ChernayaAkula:
--- Quote from: apophenia on November 24, 2022, 11:03:31 AM ---Q: With current 'shoot-and-scoot' tactics, how often do operational HIMARS fire all twelve missiles? In other words, is having only six rounds actually a major disadvantage? <...>
--- End quote ---
M142 only use six missiles/one pod anyway, so your design isn't a reduction in firepower at all. :smiley:
There are pics of M142 travelling in Ukraine that clearly show only three missiles having been expended, so it's at least plausible that they don't fire a full pod each time.
Your system's mode of operation doesn't look too different from Elbit's PULS, in that the pod "clips on" and is put in place by an external crane, so it definitely does look plausible. :smiley:
For additional GMLRS shooters, maybe Korea would be willing to give up a couple of their K329 Chunmoo MLRS. Combines M142 road mobility with M270 12 missile/2pod firepower.
Poland is interested in buying loads (almost 300!) of these. Korea is willing to send Poland some K2 MBTs from its own army stocks ahead of newly-produced tanks. Maybe Korea could send a dozen K239 to Poland early as well? And then some Polish-Ukrainian Lend-Lease....
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