Author Topic: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72781 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #175 on: November 14, 2021, 01:36:21 AM »
I'm wondering, with the LTV A-7 and Dassault Milan together, what nationality air force trial might have been occuring here?🤔

Switzerland - In 1972 the choice for a new fighter was between the Milan and the A-7G Corsair II.  Eventually neither was selected and instead the Swiss Air Force purchased 30 additional, surplus Hawker Hunters in 1973.
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #176 on: November 14, 2021, 05:46:09 AM »
I'm wondering, with the LTV A-7 and Dassault Milan together, what nationality air force trial might have been occuring here?🤔

Switzerland - In 1972 the choice for a new fighter was between the Milan and the A-7G Corsair II.  Eventually neither was selected and instead the Swiss Air Force purchased 30 additional, surplus Hawker Hunters in 1973.

Thanks for your response and clarification Greg 👍

MAD

Offline Geoff

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #177 on: November 19, 2021, 05:23:06 AM »
Sorry - this is probably a daft question, but -

If the Boeing-Dassault proposal for the F-5A Freedom Fighter had been built based on the Mirage 5, would it have had an unreheated engine and not need the intake cones? That would leave the reheated Atar or J-79 engine in the F-5E. Hope this makes sense.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #178 on: November 20, 2021, 12:54:33 AM »
I don't think there was ever a proposal for a unrelated engine version....
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #179 on: November 20, 2021, 01:51:24 AM »
I don't think there was ever a proposal for a unrelated engine version....

No I suspect they were proposed with the Atars. But cannot find real info. I did make a few with standard intakes and exhausts years back, but I have been looking back at some of Spinners artworks where he proposed an unreheated Spey. Have not checked if it will even fit to be honest, but the model I am using has really poor definition so trimed the intake cones off and changed the exhaust. So it looks like the artwork - I suspect I am simply over thinking this with a vengence
Actually the Spey is too wide - I suspect the J-73 would be the way to go


ARTWORK by SPINNERS
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 02:03:07 AM by Geoff »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #180 on: November 20, 2021, 02:07:59 AM »
Well the first Mirage III 001 prototype didn't have the inlet cones/souris.  On September 19, on its 78th sortie, Mirage III 01 reached Mach 1.8 in level flight using its ancillary rocket and then, some two weeks later on October 2 (flight 84), Mach 1.89. The aircraft had reached its upper limit: its air intakes prevented any further increase in speed. It still had reheated Atar though.


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Offline Geoff

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #181 on: November 20, 2021, 02:44:25 AM »
Thanks, So I will go with the sans souris and no afterburner/reheat. :-*

Offline dy031101

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #182 on: January 02, 2022, 09:07:15 AM »
Mirage 50 with J79

Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #183 on: January 03, 2022, 12:47:24 AM »
So essentially a non canard Kfir?
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #184 on: January 03, 2022, 05:22:06 AM »
So essentially a non canard Kfir?

'Though the Mirage 50 seems inherently more easily-adaptable for the air superiority and interception roles.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #185 on: February 05, 2022, 02:11:19 AM »
An idea triggered by apophenia's comment here.  This will be a little convoluted but bear with me.

During WWII, Australia developed its own tank called the Sentinel.  One of the odd things of this design was that it actually had 3 engines forced upon it by the unavailability of preferred options:  three Cadillac V8 engines – petrol car engines with a displacement of 346 cu in (5.7 L) each installed in a clover-leaf configuration (two engines side-by-side to the front and a single to the rear) with all feeding power to a common gearbox:




Now back to the Mirage.  What if during some scenario (be that a WW3 style event or possibly even something equivalent to COVID but in the late '60s/early '70s), Australia finds itself building new fighters but suffering from lack of the preferred 'bigger' engine.  They do have access to smaller ones though.   Long story short, the Mirage III airframe is mated to 3 Armstrong Siddeley Viper turbojets instead of the single SNECMA Atar 09C.

Looking at comparison:

SNECMA Atar 09C   Viper (as used in MB-326H)   'Triple Viper'
Thrust41.97 kN (9,440 lbf) thrust dry, 60.8 kN (13,700 lbf) with afterburner   15.2 kN (3,410 lbf) thrust   45.6 kN (10,230 lbf) thrust - not sure about with afterburner performance but let's maybe say 58.8 kN (13,230 lbf) based upon the version used in the IAR-93
Dry Weight1,456 kg (3,210 lb)   249 kg (549 lb)   747 kg (1647 lb) - without afterburner but lets say the afterburner adds another 250kg taking it all up to 997 kg (2198 lb)
Diameter1,000 mm (39 in)   624mm (24.55 in)    1270mm (50 in) - based upon cloverleaf arrangement

Note that I left out length as I doubt that will be an issue.  Theoretically it would be doable though you might end up with a fat bellied bird a bit like the Mirage III T:


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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #186 on: February 05, 2022, 04:59:01 AM »
Would that modification result in the Mirage III O becoming a Mirage III O-P [Phat] ? :smiley
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #187 on: February 05, 2022, 09:30:58 AM »
Would that modification result in the Mirage III O becoming a Mirage III O-P [Phat] ? :smiley

Or how about Mirage III O-BS?  (Based on a Juanita Franzi profile.)
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #188 on: February 05, 2022, 01:16:15 PM »
Would that modification result in the Mirage III O becoming a Mirage III O-P [Phat] ? :smiley

Or how about Mirage III O-BS?  (Based on a Juanita Franzi profile.)

Awesome and clever profile 😯🤔

MAD

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2022, 01:57:15 AM »
Would that modification result in the Mirage III O becoming a Mirage III O-P [Phat] ? :smiley

Or how about Mirage III O-BS?  (Based on a Juanita Franzi profile.)

Nice profile.  I figured the top intake wouldn't have been needed in mine and that all would exhaust through the same nozzle.
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #190 on: February 13, 2022, 04:44:33 AM »
What if IAI offers a totally new advanced Kfir to Argentina to give it reasonable air combat ability?

« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 02:44:48 PM by ysi_maniac »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #191 on: February 17, 2022, 06:52:42 PM »
EuroKfir. An elegant design IMO


Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #192 on: February 18, 2022, 10:51:07 AM »
Elegant indeed!  :smiley:
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Moritz

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Offline The Rat

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #193 on: February 19, 2022, 06:45:23 AM »
Surprised that nobody has yet suggested a 'notched delta' like the EE Lightning. Here's a quick and dirty lash-up on MS paint.

Notched Mirage III by Dave Bailey, on Flickr
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Offline The Rat

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2022, 03:41:07 AM »
Just realised that somewhere in the basement I have an Airfix Mirage IIIC, built about 50 years ago, that could be brutalised for the above idea.
"Man, if you gotta ask, you ain't never gonna know!" - Louis Armstrong, when asked "What is jazz?"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #195 on: February 20, 2022, 03:42:13 AM »
Just realised that somewhere in the basement I have an Airfix Mirage IIIC, built about 50 years ago, that could be brutalised for the above idea.

Quick - someone call the authorities before this abuse occurs!!! :o
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline The Rat

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #196 on: February 27, 2022, 03:57:00 PM »
Just realised that somewhere in the basement I have an Airfix Mirage IIIC, built about 50 years ago, that could be brutalised for the above idea.

Quick - someone call the authorities before this abuse occurs!!! :o

 ;D ;D ;D
"Man, if you gotta ask, you ain't never gonna know!" - Louis Armstrong, when asked "What is jazz?"

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #197 on: March 01, 2022, 01:10:54 PM »
What if IAI improves Kfir with bits recovered from Lavi cancelled project?


Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #198 on: March 02, 2022, 01:39:06 AM »
So Pratt & Whitney PW1120 powered Kfir?  That could prove interesting.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #199 on: March 04, 2022, 12:30:46 PM »
What if IAI improves Kfir with bits recovered from Lavi cancelled project?



I like it ysi_maniac 🤔

MAD