Author Topic: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 50634 times)

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2012, 05:33:01 AM »
What was the fee Rolls Royce charged per Merlin?   IIRC, it was tremendously expensive.     

And for the profile of the Allison D-model Mustang, Ron Cline's 1/48 ICM-based  ''Joker" is the machine.   :)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2012, 11:57:41 AM »
Something I came across a while ago - a single F-82B was converted into a photo-recon RF-82B in the late '40s:

In flight trials:




Pod in construction:



With an without pics:




Regards,

Greg
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2012, 02:07:29 PM »
That photopod is almost Steampunk.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 05:32:09 AM »


P-51 "Mustang" fighter planes being prepared for test flight near the North American Aviation plant in Inglewood, California.
Original Kodachrome transparency by Alfred Palmer for the Office of War Information from 1942.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:30:33 PM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 11:00:59 AM »
How about a P-51 with the Allison V-1710 and turbosupercharger from the P-38.  The original P-51s had this engine, though without turbosupercharger.  What if instead of going to the Merlin, they simply added the turbosupercharger from the P-38 to provide the higher altitude performance sought?


I had a bash ... but she's not much of a looker! Might it be simpler to adopt a Thunderbolt-style turbo system to the P-51?

BTW: as their starting point, these images used bits and pieces from various GaŽtan Marie profiles -- http://mustang.gaetanmarie.com/profiles.htm
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2012, 12:35:35 PM »
If you're going the P-38 route, you want to remove the oil coolers from under the engine sinc the P-51 has the oil cooler along side the radiator.  You'll need a bit deeper cowl to add the intercoolers to the induction system, but not that much.  I'd go with a side-mounted turbocharger (much like some Japanese attempts) rather than one on the bottom of the fuselage since that would require re-doing the engine and oil cooling systems (that just runs up development costs); though if you did take that approach of re-doing the cooling system, the new cooling system would likely best use wing root leading edge radiators to keep the drag increase down.  I'd be in favor of anything that retains the P-51's design for producibility (complete fuselages and wings can be built up and fully checked out separately before mating and only the control interfaces then need checking) which is why I favor the side-mounted turbocharger or turbochargers.

Frankly, a redesigned Allison with a two-stage supercharger similar to the Merlin's would be a simpler solution and allows some interesting alternatives.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2012, 10:48:49 PM »
A bit like this maybe

Offline Tophe

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2012, 11:20:01 PM »
Belated thanks to all for this interesting topic.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2012, 11:25:06 PM »
Just a thought, how about a Mustang two-seat intermediate trainer with a Ranger, or Menasco, IV-12 engine replacing the Merlin?  The canopy and cockpit arrangement would be the same as some of the field-mod two-seat conversions but totally different forward of the firewall and lacking the radiator and scoop.  This could also be the lead-in design for a post-war touring aircraft similar to the Navion.

Along the same lines, how about a British-modified conversion trainer with a Dagger replacing the Merlin and elimination of the cooling scoop and radiator installation.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 04:22:47 AM by elmayerle »

Offline apophenia

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 06:46:29 AM »
Frankly, a redesigned Allison with a two-stage supercharger similar to the Merlin's would be a simpler solution and allows some interesting alternatives.


IIRC, Allison proposed just that to the Air Corps in the late '30s but was declined.

Here's a go at that 2-seat Mustang with a Ranger V-770. Evan: do you have any details on that Menasco IV-12? This time my starting point was GaŽtan Marie's 'Mustang Template'  -- http://mustang.gaetanmarie.com/profiles.htm
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2012, 07:09:23 AM »
After Googling Menasco, it seems that their main production was I-4 (Pirate) and I-6 (Buccaneer) engines with some experimental air-cooled IV's that never went too far.  The Ranger engine seems the best choice for now.  Wasn't there an experimental T-6 variant with a Ranger or Menasco engine?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2012, 07:27:24 AM »
After Googling Menasco, it seems that their main production was I-4 (Pirate) and I-6 (Buccaneer) engines with some experimental air-cooled IV's that never went too far.  The Ranger engine seems the best choice for now.  Wasn't there an experimental T-6 variant with a Ranger or Menasco engine?


That would have been the XAT-6E (derived from an AT-6D) powered by a Ranger V-770-9 (575hp) engine for trials.  (Wikipedia - North American T-6 Texan).     

The Curtiss SO3C Seamew was also powered by the Ranger V-770
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 07:19:16 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: P-51 Mustang and Derivates Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2012, 09:59:47 AM »
After Googling Menasco, it seems that their main production was I-4 (Pirate) and I-6 (Buccaneer) engines with some experimental air-cooled IV's that never went too far...

That'd be the 2,000 hp XIV-2020-1 (aka MX-46). AFAIK, none were ever built but it was supposed to be a 2035 cid (6" bore x 6" stroke) V-12.

Related was the 3,400 hp Menasco XH-4070-1 (MX-110) H-24 of 4,071 cid (same bore and stroke as the XIV-2020). It wasn't built either. Still, these designs can't have been complete dogs since Wright planned to use Menasco IV-2020 cylinder banks (albeit bored out to 6.125") for their XH-4240 'hyper' engine.
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Offline Litvyak

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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2012, 11:17:32 AM »
So I added several kits to my stash the other day, some helos and one that - as soon as I opened the package - regretted buying - the RoG 1/72 P-51D Mustang.

I was planning to use it to do a RCAF 442 Sqn bird, but the kit just looks too simple/awful to bother with for one of my RW builds.

So, I decided it's a perfect candidate for some whiffery, and I've got a pile of oldish decals of unusual roundels - Algeria, Kyrgyzstan, Jordan, Cambodia, Mexico, Congo/Brazzaville, Burma, Rhodesia, Lebanon, Venezuela, Thailand, etc etc... I've also got a Starfix T-38 kit I have no idea what I'll do with...

...anybody got any ideas they're willing to throw at me for these?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: A purchase regretted...
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2012, 12:14:37 PM »
That bad?  Well, then I'd say that something suitable from that stack of unusual decals sounds about right, Kyrgystan and Cambodia would take the most creative backstory while most of the others could fit rather more easily.  The Starfix T-38 kit probably should go to somewhere like Venezuela or Thailand would could use a good lead-in high performance trainer.