Author Topic: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 7868 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2018, 05:27:33 AM »
I don't Carl, just what I read in an article on what they did. I've seen a photo of the front spar extension though, which if I understand it correctly, was used on every other Sunderland afterwards. It was just a short length of spar with the bolt connections at both ends.

On the kit, the rear spar is easy to identify, it's the panel line on the wing that corresponds with the rear end of the kit's location tab, front end of that tab happens to be where the front spar is.

If you do a google image search for Short Sunderland prototype, there's a few of it in the first few pics. A bit further down is another which says was a German Recognition manual showing the prototype

EDIT:  Just looked on the What-If forum to find my thread there on my project, only I haven't started one, just added to an on going one. The wing was rotated 4 degrees backwards at the rear spar point where it attaches to the fuselage, so I cut a 4 degree wedge shape slot in the front of the spar then added a four degree wedge behind it.  IIRC, this makes the rear spar perpendicular to the fuselage center line. wrong, it makes the rear spar 2 degrees forward of perpendicular instead of 2 degrees backwards as the production Sunderlands were.

EDIT 2:  The thread I thought I had on the What-If forum isn't there because  ----- it's on this forum   :-X :-X :-X

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1235.0
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:19:00 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline finsrin

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2018, 07:06:50 AM »
A right-n-proper project.  Power of Griffons is big help.  Agree with loadout idea.  Keep going.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2018, 07:42:54 AM »
Thanks Robert and Bill.

I'll reviewed your work and yes I'll reduce the sweep back.

I think I will use the larger tail as used on the Seaford. A B-50 tail looks to be a good replacement.



« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:53:30 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2018, 08:05:05 AM »
Self defence will be upgraded with 2 dorsal turrets from either a B-17 or Lancaster.
Suggest the tail turret from a 2x .50 gun Lanc along with the twin .50 Lanc upper turrets. Replace the piddly nose turret with either the forward turret from a later Liberator or the Shackleton's twin 20mm mount, or, and here's where it gets WHIFfy, a remotely operated twin 20mm turret cobbled together from the Bendix chin turret from a Fortress, deepened to manage the greater feed chute issues of the 20mm belts. A little Miliput would allow you to create a shape that would easily fair into the nose of a Sunderland.

You could also add the cheek guns from a Boston or Mitchell for additional firepower on the bombing run after catching a sub on the surface.

Subbing out some or all of the above with the Mitchell H's light 75mm could make gor a nasty surprise for surfaced subs.

Quote
Weapons loadout is TBD but am thinking Tiny Tim rockets and maybe the ASM-N-2 Bat. And radar too. Bombs are so 1938.
Against subs, the Bat would be near perfect, the Tiny Tim less so because the accuracy wasn't good enough. Although a variant armed with a depth charge might be better, a Tiny Tim woul dprobably be a better land attach weapon. An externally carried Bat under each wing plus depth charged on the internal racks to be run out under the wings for a second attack run could be very effective.

Paul

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2018, 08:22:14 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot

From Wiki:

Defensive armament included a Nash & Thompson FN-13 powered turret with four .303 British Browning machine guns in the extreme tail and a pair of manually-operated .303 set on either side of the fuselage, firing from ports just below and behind the wings. These machine guns were later upgraded to 0.5-inch calibre Brownings. There were two different nose turret weapons, the most common, later, being two Browning machine guns. The nose weapons were later augmented by four fixed guns, two each side, in the forward fuselage that were fired by the pilot.[16] Much later, a twin-gun turret was to be dorsal-mounted on the upper fuselage, about level with the wing trailing edge, bringing the total defensive armament up to 16 machine guns.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 01:38:07 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 02:04:09 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.

Good idea. Creating it now.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 02:42:51 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot
Oh, I know about the Sunderland's cheek guns, it's just that they were piddly .303s. I'm thinking 4 x .50s or maybe 2 or 4 x 20mm to really put a beating on the deck crew and maybe actually damage the hull.

By the end of the war the U-boat crews got really good at riding the bubble to allow super quick dives. Sneaking up on them low, throttled back and relatively quiet and then hosing them with 20mm AP rounds would make a world of difference. The .303s, not so much.

The 20mm rounds would get there significantly before the plane could pass over to drop depth charges. The BAT would be much better, of course.

And the 20mm would make a much bigger mess out any small surface targets like barges or E-boats.

 ;)

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2018, 01:52:41 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):



Or maybe RPs:

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2018, 02:22:29 AM »
or like this

Offline apophenia

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 12:29:42 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 12:46:37 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):
Yes, like that belly pack.

The RPs are OK, but you still end up having to get kinda close and by the war's end, some of the Type VII and later boats were carrying a substantial AAA kit. Pitching a Bat at it would be far better/safer.  :smiley:

Paul

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2018, 02:33:12 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?


Or in bomb bay:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2018, 07:55:22 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.
Yeah, folded up like that, you get interference drag that can be fierce.