Author Topic: Blue Widows  (Read 22726 times)

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Blue Widows
« on: December 06, 2020, 11:04:32 AM »
Forked-Tailled Marines - Northrop's 'Blue Widows'

In 1944, the US Marines planned to take on 75 Northrop P-61 Black Widow night fighters as the F2T-1N. That intended night-fighting role was later shifted to carrier-capable Grumman F7Fs. [1] The Black Widow contract was accordingly revised for two, revised P-61 derivatives. The first was the Marines' TF2T-2 trainer - a dual control conversion (akin to the Army's TP-61C but based upon reconditioned P-61A-5 airframes). [2] The second variant would ultimately become the F3T-1A Nemesis strike fighter.

Scout Torpedo - Tentative Steps Toward a Strike Fighter

As first envisioned, the Marines' Northrop was to be a diurnal torpedo bomber with a reduced fixed armament. Designated XTST-1 in the USN's new (and short-lived) Scout Torpedo [3] category, the prototype was a conversion of an XP-61-NO Black Widow trials airframe. [4] Unofficially dubbed 'Stingray', the XTST-1 had the 2-seat fuselage pod of Northrop's XP-61E escort fighter. Armament consisted of a single torpedo mount set to the portside and fixed-gun installations. The starboard pair of 20 mm belly cannons would be retained but the nose radome was also replaced with gun mounts. [5] Modifications to XTST-1 standards proceeded slowly and, by the time the prototype was completed, the Marines had decided to drop the torpedo-carrying component from its requirements. The focus now shifted to a dedicated fighter-bomber design.

Bottom Northrop XTST-1 'Stingray' torpedo strike - prototype conversion underway showing 2-seat pod, P-38 nose, and belly torpedo mount. Although painted in the correct USN all-over dark blue scheme, the prototype has been given USAAF-style national insignia and an unofficial 'Marines' marking on each boom.

Like the XTST-1, the production variant was based upon the 2-seat XP-61E fuselage pod. As a strike fighter, the production type was designated as F3T-1A and named Nemesis. There was no F3T-1A Nemesis prototype. The 2-seat pod was simply mated with the otherwise standard airframe of the P-61B-2-NO. The latter was identical to the in-production P-61C but lacked the turbocharged engines - deemed unnecessary for the low-altitude attack role. Compared with the torpedo-toting XTST-1, the production F3T-1A carried an aggressive fixed armament. This restored the P-61's full belly armament of four 20 mm cannons combined with a quartet of heavy machine guns. The XTST-1's P-38-style nose was replaced by a simpler shape based on the original radome.

Attack! - The Operational F3T-1A Nemesis Strike Fighter

A distinct USMC Nemesis formation was established in 1944 - the Marine Aircraft Group 34 - which absorbed two squadrons from MAG-24. MAG-34, under Colonel Keith B. McCutcheon (formerly of MAG-24), consisted of two SBD squadrons - VMSB-241 'Sons of Satan' and VMSB-341 'Torrid Turtles'. Some fresh personnel accompanied the F3T-1A delivery to the Philippines but most MAG-34 converted over to the F3T-1A in Manila. There, these units were redesignated as Marine Attack Squadron (Heavy) - VMA(H)-241 and VMA(H)-341. In the southern Philippines, the MAG-34 squadrons operated alongside Douglas SBDs of the remaining VMSB units and the North American PBJs of VMB-611.

Such was the success of the F3T-1A Nemesis attack fighters of MAG-34 that, by September 1945, few large targets remained among the scattered Japanese hold-outs on Mindanao. Accordingly, VMA(H)-241 and VMA(H)-341 were staged north to prepare for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands. To simplify supply lines, these Marine aircraft were based together with Army Black Widows - 20th AF P-61B-2s of the 549th NFS - on Iwo Jima. From there, the MAG-34 F3T-1As began attack runs on the Osumi Islands and Kyushu itself. By the time of the attack on Kyushu, MAG-34 was scheduled to receive replacement F3T-2s (with eight nose guns and four wing pylons) but, it is believed, none of these late-model Nemesis saw full operational deployment.

Top An F3T-1A Nemesis of VMA(H)-241 marked with yellow invasion cowling 'rings' (and matching spinners). The 'B' rudder mark is for CVL-30 San Jacinto - VMA(H)-241's notional home since flying Dauntless dive bombers. [6] The VMA(H)-241 crest is worn above the individual aircraft code on the fins. The pilot of this aircraft was 1st Lt G.F. Coleman who had transferred over from VMA(H)-341. On the nose are the personal markings 'Outta the Park' - showing a baseball marked with the Japanese ensign being knocked out of the park ('Jerry' Coleman having been a professional ball player before joining the Marines).

While the F3T-1A Nemesis served the Marines well in wartime, they did not long survive the peace. In the Summer of 1946, all F3T-1A and F3T-2 aircraft were modified and redesignated as KDT-1 and KDT-2 remote-controlled target drones. By the beginning of 1949, all KDT drones had been expended (most simulating attacking bombers).

__________________________________________

[1] The US Navy had borrowed two USAAF P-61s to qualify the aircraft for shipboard catapult launches. Trials were inconclusive and, it seems, the intended F2T-1 designation was never applied to these aircraft.

[2] Sole operator of the F2T-2T trainer was VMAT-201 (Marine Attack Training Squadron 201) which functioned as an operational conversion unit.

[3] The only other 'TS' designation was assigned to the unbuilt 1944 Grumman XTSF-1 - an enlarged F7F.

[4] The first YP-61-NO - 41-18876 c/n 704 - had crashed taking off from Northrop Field in April 1944. Although written-off by the USAAF, Northrop was given permission to rebuild the damaged airframe to XTST-1 standard.

[5] The prototype XTST-1 was fitted with a modified nose from a P-38 fighter. This was armed with four 50-caliber machine guns and a cannon - either another 20 mm or a 37 mm M9.

"Rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'cuz they don't go for what's in the Book and that makes 'em BAD!"

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2020, 03:46:06 PM »
The P-38 nose on the XTST-1 prototype looks sleek.

What was in the P-61 belly? The XTST-1 looks better to me, with a flat shape there.

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2020, 05:50:08 PM »
Looking sleek and fast.  :smiley:

Offline Robomog

  • ...had a very bad experience with [an] orange...
  • Would you buy a used kit from this man?
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2020, 06:43:48 PM »
That's one pretty impressive fighter bomber !    :-* :-* :-*

Mog
>^-.-^<
Mostly Harmless...............

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2020, 07:47:14 PM »
Nice! :smiley:

Though I prefer the P-38 nose, which can, with the belly "pod", give you a gun load of either 5 x .50cal's & 4 x 20mm's or 4 x .50cal's & 5 x 20mm's. ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2020, 12:13:00 AM »
IIRC the US 8th AF looked at using the P-61 as a photorecce aircraft. Just a thought.

Offline Dr. YoKai

  • Was in High School when mastadons roamed the plains...
  • A notorious curmudgeon who is partial to...hemp!
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2020, 02:30:56 AM »
IIRC the US 8th AF looked at using the P-61 as a photorecce aircraft. Just a thought.
Eventually developed as the F (f for photo) -15 Reporter, wasn't it? I can't remember if it was ordered for service or not.

More outstanding profiles. I neve confirmed it, but I think my Father might have repaired P-61 Radar & radio sets during the war - I know he introduced me to a Widow pilot he knew when we were in North Dakota in the 70s.

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2020, 03:00:38 AM »
Great story and profiles Stephen.

Here are some, Blue, Grey, Green and Brown Widows.  Radar is the ASV Mark II as used by the B-24.
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 04:50:52 AM »
Thanks folks!  :D

perttime: That P-61 paunch housed the four, fixed 20 mm Hispano cannons.

Old Wombat: Yeah, I too like the change of profile that the P-38 nose gave it. Originally, I was thinking of the 37 mm M9 (might've been handy against coastal shipping targets). One concern with cannons in a longer nose would be the c/g shifting while firing  ???

Dr. YoKai: That's the one! The prototype XF-15 photo-recon type was actually a conversion of the original XP-61E (whose fuselage I based my XTST-1/F3T-1A Nemesis on).

The Big Gimper: Cheers Carl. Great to see the P-61 in something other than its usual Black Widow[/b]'s weeds! 'Maverick' has also answered my concern about mounting rocket rails on the P-61 - so long as they're forward of the spoilers, no probs  :smiley:
"Rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'cuz they don't go for what's in the Book and that makes 'em BAD!"

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 05:41:46 AM »
IIRC the US 8th AF looked at using the P-61 as a photorecce aircraft. Just a thought.
Eventually developed as the F (f for photo) -15 Reporter, wasn't it? I can't remember if it was ordered for service or not.

More outstanding profiles. I neve confirmed it, but I think my Father might have repaired P-61 Radar & radio sets during the war - I know he introduced me to a Widow pilot he knew when we were in North Dakota in the 70s.

Yes I think hats right

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2020, 12:30:14 PM »
IIRC the US 8th AF looked at using the P-61 as a photorecce aircraft. Just a thought.
Eventually developed as the F (f for photo) -15 Reporter, wasn't it? I can't remember if it was ordered for service or not.

...
Number built    36
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-15_Reporter

They mainly operated from Japan. Mapping Korea was probably the major task.

edit: many are probably familiar with Logan's Reporters: https://www.deviantart.com/comradeloganov/gallery/36273612/what-if-profiles
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 12:40:25 PM by perttime »

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 04:05:45 PM »
IIRC the US 8th AF looked at using the P-61 as a photorecce aircraft. Just a thought.
Eventually developed as the F (f for photo) -15 Reporter, wasn't it? I can't remember if it was ordered for service or not.

...
Number built    36
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-15_Reporter

They mainly operated from Japan. Mapping Korea was probably the major task.

edit: many are probably familiar with Logan's Reporters: https://www.deviantart.com/comradeloganov/gallery/36273612/what-if-profiles

Thank you

Offline MAT

  • Mostly harmless
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 06:20:41 PM »
Great inspiration
I have a couple of old Frog P-61s somewhere in my stash. Maybe I should dig them up someday in the near future.

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2020, 05:51:13 AM »
I have a couple of old Frog P-61s somewhere in my stash. Maybe I should dig them up someday in the near future.

That would be very cool MAT  :D

I'd forgotten that there had ever been a Frog Black Widow! It looks like an excellent candidate for conversion.

I know that there are XP-61E/F-15 conversions out there - eg: Maintrack resin for the Airfix kit. But looking at the Frog sprue makes it look like a DIY conversion to 2-seater is feasible ... dare I say, even an 'easy' conversion after your Jet Mossie;D

(Edit: Forgot to mention, the F-15 water bomber conversion later adopted a T-33 replacement canopy. So, lots of 'spares box' canopies from postwar 2-seat aircraft are potential candidates.)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 05:54:06 AM by apophenia »
"Rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'cuz they don't go for what's in the Book and that makes 'em BAD!"

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2020, 06:25:22 AM »
Lone Star models did in 1/72 P-61C, XP-61E and F-15 conversions. Have them in the stash.

https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION%5B%5D=All&q=1%2F72+P-61
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2020, 01:22:31 AM »
Lone Star models did in 1/72 P-61C, XP-61E and F-15 conversions. Have them in the stash.

https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION%5B%5D=All&q=1%2F72+P-61

and 1/48...ditto
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Kerick

  • Reportedly finished with a stripper...
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2024, 08:17:22 AM »
I recall in Europe when there were no night bombing by the Germans anymore the P-61s were used in the strike role with some still having the four .50s on top and the four 20mm. I think some even carried bombs too.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Blue Widows
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2024, 01:40:30 AM »
I think some even carried bombs too.

Here's a photo of one with bombs:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.