Author Topic: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations  (Read 30404 times)

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« on: February 25, 2012, 12:14:30 PM »
Recall that I've been thinking of an AAW ship armed with an adopted MIM-23 HAWK launcher to go with an Iran-like F-14 what-if.

Almost a week after trying with a Shipbucket drawing of the Iroquois class destroyer, I'm still not sure if I'm happy with that choice......

The idea behind using the Iroquois class is that I want to share the aspect of being re-purposed after having served a different role, but can anyone suggest a more-widely-exported or export-oriented design that has enough potential to do the same?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 12:26:34 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 01:47:45 PM »
Reading about success with rail gun tests.  A nuclear powered 21st century battle ship with main and secondary size rail guns, modern 5in 54cal, 25mm mounts, CIWS.  For missiles, all or some of these: Harpoon, Tomahawk, Standard SAM, Sea Sparrow.  Could have rear flight deck for F-35 and helicopters.  At least a helipad.  Thinking 108ft width of Iowa class (for Panama canal) only longer by 100-200ft.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 09:45:44 AM »
Does anyone know, however roughly, the internal layout of the Georges Leygues class frigate?

In particular, what's below the spot where I put the 4 in. Vickers gun (I'd like to know if I can put the gun there the way I did; if that part has something to do with the Crotale launcher that I took away, then maybe that's something I can spin)?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 11:07:07 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline RP1

  • Wait, what?
    • RP1 dot net
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 01:11:04 AM »
Hi,

Not sure of the exact internal layout, but that area would probably have; aviation workshops and stores, air conditioning intake spaces (I think I can see intakes in some pictures). The Crotale reloader is in the superstructure, but I don't know where the magazine is. The mag. would either be in the superstructure beneath the launcher, or in the hull beneath it. Either way, you could do a swap . I suspect, however, that the gun has a carousel or other autoloader beneath it, so you probably can't remove the little bit of superstructure that the Crotale launcher is sat on, as you have done in that image, without loosing space somewhere.

- RP1

 

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 06:55:00 AM »
The Crotale reloading mechanism and magazine is in the deckhouse forward of the launcher, which I've coloured red in this profile:



You can see it in this picture. The 18 x circular hatches in the front of the deckhouse are the tubes that the individual missiles sit in:

« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 07:12:35 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 12:37:01 PM »
I suspect, however, that the gun has a carousel or other autoloader beneath it, so you probably can't remove the little bit of superstructure that the Crotale launcher is sat on, as you have done in that image, without loosing space somewhere.
The Crotale reloading mechanism and magazine is in the deckhouse forward of the launcher...

Hum...... would this one make more sense then?

(The rear section adopted from that of a Cassard class.)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Thiel

  • Guest
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 02:24:42 AM »
I suspect carrying the gun that high is going to do funky things with your topweight.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Planar-array SPS-49?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 01:49:16 AM »
Recently I've been making slight renovations on Shipbucket graph-bashes that I did in the past.

SPS-49 features rather prominently, and there are certain ships that I would like equipped with something demonstratably more-advanced.  I've heard that there is a planar-array version of SPS-49 that might be the ticket but couldn't find out if that version is successful or not.  Can anyone shed any light on whether it is indeed an advanced version of SPS-49, when it came into being, and if it is a successful development?

Also, is there an European alternative to any advanced version of SPS-49?

Thanks in advance.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Thiel

  • Guest
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 09:01:33 PM »
Depending on the timeframe there's the Dutch Smart+L or the British Type 967/968.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 04:33:38 AM »
Real world proposal: 

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 05:07:55 AM »
Giuseppe Garibaldi, a WWII Italian cruiser was extensively upgraded post war with Terrier SAM, new rapid fire 5.3" (I think) guns and Polaris launch tubes, with the missile to be provided by the US in time of war.  I believe the rebuilt Albany Class CGs, in addition to their Talos and Tartar SAMs were also originally intended to have Polaris, while several of the remaining gun cruisers were fitted for / with Regulus.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Blue-water mothership for FACs and Subchasers?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 02:46:57 PM »
I remember reading the background information of the Type 23 frigates.

Apparently it originally called for a low-cost variable depth sonar hauler with ASW torpedoes and helicopter landing spot, supported by a new class of replenishment oilers armed with Sea Wolf missiles for fleet air defense (over both the austere Type 23s and the replenishment oilers themselves).

Falkland War led to change of plan that ultimately produced the Type 23 as we know it.  But let's say...

... a navy like that of Israel, Iran, North Korea, or even Cold-War-era Canada, with the majority of existing surface combatants already being fast attack crafts, corvettes, and/or even austere frigates.  Would a "replenishment oiler" equipped with flag facility and armed with real area air defense missile system(s) (like SM-2 or Rif-M), or an area-defense missile cruiser equipped with underway replenishment and helicopter maintenance capabilities be able to allow the existing missile boats and corvettes to become useful in blue-water maneuvers?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 01:04:53 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 03:40:35 PM »
And/or, instead of having high end warships escort amphibious ships, why not install AEGIS and a large VLS on big amphibious ships such as the San Antonio class LPDs?  It is quite usual for an amphibious group consisting of an LHD, LPD and LSD, to be escorted by an AEGIS cruiser and a frigate, why not instead fit AEGIS, the VLS and possibly a medium calibre gun to the LPD, which is integral with the group anyway, and beef up the escort with a couple of LCS to handle ASW, MCM and surface warfare?

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2015, 05:40:09 AM »
And/or, instead of having high end warships escort amphibious ships, why not install AEGIS and a large VLS on big amphibious ships such as the San Antonio class LPDs?  It is quite usual for an amphibious group consisting of an LHD, LPD and LSD, to be escorted by an AEGIS cruiser and a frigate, why not instead fit AEGIS, the VLS and possibly a medium calibre gun to the LPD, which is integral with the group anyway, and beef up the escort with a couple of LCS to handle ASW, MCM and surface warfare?

Maximizing the number of high-end warships might be more versatile.

Maybe put a cheaper FCS on the amphibious ships but include CEC as part of that suite?

====================================================================

Does anyone know if EL/M-2248 MF-STAR can illuminate for SM-2MR and ER missiles?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2015, 10:37:59 AM »
And/or, instead of having high end warships escort amphibious ships, why not install AEGIS and a large VLS on big amphibious ships such as the San Antonio class LPDs?  It is quite usual for an amphibious group consisting of an LHD, LPD and LSD, to be escorted by an AEGIS cruiser and a frigate, why not instead fit AEGIS, the VLS and possibly a medium calibre gun to the LPD, which is integral with the group anyway, and beef up the escort with a couple of LCS to handle ASW, MCM and surface warfare?

The French Jeanne d'Arc was originally going to be along those lines, with a twin Masurca SAM system forwards. The idea was that she'd be a self-escorting helicopter cruiser that, by swapping helicopters, could do either ASW or helo assault. In the end, they decided that the assault function needed maximum volume and deleted the Masurca system in favour of putting it on dedicated DDGs.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Blue-water mothership for FACs and Subchasers?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2015, 10:45:21 AM »
I remember reading the background information of the Type 23 frigates.

Apparently it originally called for a low-cost variable depth sonar hauler with ASW torpedoes and helicopter landing spot, supported by a new class of replenishment oilers armed with Sea Wolf missiles for fleet air defense (over both the austere Type 23s and the replenishment oilers themselves).

Falkland War led to change of plan that ultimately produced the Type 23 as we know it.  But let's say...



The RFAs Fort Victoria and Fort George were actually fitted for-but-not-with a 32-round Seawolf system. The missiles would have gone in the top of the midships deckhouse, with FCS on the superstructure at either end. The FCS positions were later used for Phalanx guns, but if you look at an aerial picture of them, you can still see the missile tube hatches in the roof amidships.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 10:48:26 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 10:51:46 AM »
Real world proposal: 




I'd read about it, but not seen an artist's impression, when I did this profile of a cheaper version for a NATO joint force (which was a real proposal):

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2015, 03:43:56 PM »
It would appear that a couple of British firms in the '90s did some studies on FAC mothership designs that look like the kind of stuff I want to base my "Expeditionary Cruiser for a Green-water Navy" on...... the design is supposed to be capable of 25 knots, however, and some people are with the opinion that this is where a lot of expense would have gone into...... I wonder if 20 knots would still have been serviceable......

All I need would be to put an area air defence missile battery forward and air surveillance radars on the superstructures (maybe two panels forward and two aft la Ticonderoga)...... and it looks like I would need separate illuminators for SM-2 with EL/M-2248 MF-STAR......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline RP1

  • Wait, what?
    • RP1 dot net
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 12:56:02 AM »
Quote
It would appear that a couple of British firms in the '90s did some studies on FAC mothership designs that look like the kind of stuff I want to base my "Expeditionary Cruiser for a Green-water Navy" on

It was the early 2000's - I'm not that old  ;)  Would you like to know more?

RP1

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 01:04:47 PM »
Quote
It would appear that a couple of British firms in the '90s did some studies on FAC mothership designs that look like the kind of stuff I want to base my "Expeditionary Cruiser for a Green-water Navy" on

It was the early 2000's - I'm not that old  ;)

Just goes to show that one should double-check what they see on the internet harder than previously done......  ;D

Would you like to know more?

Hum...... would you also be of the opinion that the specified 25-knot speed is where a lot of expenses would be spent?  If so, how much slower can it get and still remain useful as a blue-water vessel?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 11:19:22 AM »
Quote
It would appear that a couple of British firms in the '90s did some studies on FAC mothership designs that look like the kind of stuff I want to base my "Expeditionary Cruiser for a Green-water Navy" on


It was the early 2000's - I'm not that old  ;)  Would you like to know more?


I read an outside entry here.  Apparently there is a variant supposed to be capable of 40kts!

Is that 40kt-capable version the so-called "significantly expensive" one?  I'm more than willing to settle with 25kt if this is the case.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline RP1

  • Wait, what?
    • RP1 dot net
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 08:00:24 AM »
Hiya!

Apologies for not responding sooner - every project needs a deliverable right now, it seems!

Below is the relative cost comparison, baselined against the basic dock ship design we developed.

This shows the number of each of two sizes of asset that can be carried and the UPC of the mothership per asset.
So we can see that the 40 knot version of the crane ships is almost twice the price, with just under twice the displacement and more than five times the propulsion power (250MW!)

RP1

      UPC Per Asset
Study   Relative UPC   Medium   Relative   Small   Relative
Dock   1.00         4      1.0         6   1.0
Lift      1.13         4      1.13         6   1.13
Crane   0.91         2      1.82         4   1.36
Fast      1.72         2      3.43         4   2.58
Gantry   0.90         -      -         4   1.35
Deep   0.97         -      -         4   1.45
SSK      0.74         1      2.97         -   -

Offline RP1

  • Wait, what?
    • RP1 dot net
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 08:08:33 AM »
Regarding speed; ISTR we found 25 knots was a sensible maximum speed because above that power requirements would start to get silly. Personally I'd be inclined to limit the power to an MT30 and two diesels, so about 45MW, which would drop the maximum speed of the larger ships a little.

We were, however, limited in the minimum speed allowed by the CONOPS of these ships. I cannot go into this in detail but for the roles for which they were considered, a speed of 25 knots was sensible.

RP1

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
CEAMOUNT illuminator
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2015, 02:16:59 AM »
I never realized that there is a trainable version in the lineup......

Sounds potentially impressive as a replacement for, say, SPG-62 illuminator......

Does anyone know, however, if there would be any special consideration at all if we talk about putting CEAMOUNT illuminators on a BMD-capable ship?  Or is the ability to guide SM-3 really not that dependent on what illuminators the warship has?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 02:18:43 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline RP1

  • Wait, what?
    • RP1 dot net
Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2015, 07:28:30 AM »
Hi,

I'm pretty certain that the standard CEAMOUNT illuminators don't have the range for BMD. I did estimate their performance once and IIRC they seemed to be scaled for ESSM.

SM-3 has a separating kinetic warhead with IR guidance so the illuminators wouldn't be needed, as long as there is a surveillance / tracking array powerful enough to follow the target - which SPY-1 is more than capable of doing.

RP1