Author Topic: Panavia Tornado possibilities  (Read 23551 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2014, 01:37:49 PM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2014, 02:06:13 PM »
Was that the GE F404 powered derivative that West Germany considered as an alternative to the Typhoon?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2014, 02:35:40 PM »
No. It is the Panavia model 100 which was a single seat version considered early on in the MRCA development.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2014, 02:38:57 PM »
the Tornado 2000 concepts from the early 90s?


Speaking of which, this doesn't seem to be included to date.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2014, 02:45:45 PM »
One idea I have had for a while is to do a Tornado heavy air wing for a '80s era CVA-01 based HMS Queen Elizabeth II carrier.  This would involve Sea Tornado IDS variants for anti shipping/strike etc and Sea Tordnado ADVs for air defence.  Would possibly make for an interesting alternate Falklands war.
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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2014, 02:53:11 PM »
Random Idea: Indian Air Force Tornados
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2014, 04:08:54 PM »
One idea I have had for a while is to do a Tornado heavy air wing for a '80s era CVA-01 based HMS Queen Elizabeth II carrier.  This would involve Sea Tornado IDS variants for anti shipping/strike etc and Sea Tordnado ADVs for air defence.  Would possibly make for an interesting alternate Falklands war.

Check reply #60  ;)

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2014, 04:14:33 PM »
Great minds think alike...or fools never differ ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2014, 05:52:59 PM »
Bit of both.

I was looking at doing it years ago pre kids and mortgage the idea being the air-group of a modern day CVA (not necessarily the CVA01 design).  F and FA Tornados based on the ADV.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2014, 01:57:35 AM »
Not as attractive looking, but I would base a CV variant on the shorter fuselage of the IDS if possible. Stowage on a carrier is always cramped. I'm not sure of the planform... would a Tonka benefit from oversweep like a Tomcat?

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2014, 02:00:45 AM »
Would it need it Silver Fox ? it's much smaller than an F-14

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2014, 04:17:43 AM »
Once upon a time there was talk of a single seat Panavia 'Tornado'
That is too much tail for one person to handle on their own ;)
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2014, 04:42:56 AM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.

That's a fair comment for genuine UORs, but the Jag upgrades were really a properly engineered, sensibly organised project of the kind you'd hope the MoD would run in an ideal world. The fact that in the real world the MoD does anything but that lead them to use the UOR mechanism primarily as a means of  bypassing the BS, but they were in no sense "lash-ups".

The "spend-to-save" arguments should also be taken with a partial pinch of salt too. There was certainly some of that effect in practice, but the RAF had been asking for an engine upgrade since the early 1980s and the sensor/weapon enhancements were a staightforward capability increase.
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2014, 04:53:53 AM »
At a guesstimate, the Tonka would be about 2 meters narrower if it could oversweep. Whether you need it or not is a function of the size of your carrier and the size of your air wing. It looks to be a lot of complexity to achieve... commonality would go down the tubes.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panavia Tornado possibilities
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2014, 09:52:38 AM »
I understand that but what they achieved was accelerated configuration change replacing obsolete, no-longer sustainable items with new, superior in production MOTS and COTS alternatives.  Long term sustainment was actually improved.

I am talking about spares, trained maintainers, maintenance/support programs, manuals, full analysis of impacts etc etc...all those things that are often overlooked in contingency mods/UORs but which will come back to haunt you should the platform remain in service for any period of time without addressing them.

Missed this earlier.  Yes I agree, on the Jaguar however I understand that they did all of this as it happened pre UOR as a life extension of an aging platform until such time as its replacement entered service.  What differed, as I remember reading, was that the procurement cycle was improved to provide faster decisions and approvals getting the new gear in service as quickly as possible.  I am trying to remember where I read this and if I do I will dig it out, it was a very interesting read.