Author Topic: Winged wraiths  (Read 1525 times)

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2019, 12:13:39 AM »
One thing that has just hit me is that  I bet the ground crews would hate bombing up this machine - not a lot of clearance.
I might have to think about some jacks built into the U/C for this because I can't see a Cookie being loaded at the moment :(

Clamshell the aft portion of the bomb bay bulge (a bit of alliteration for a Monday, then?) to permit the cookie to be loaded. Loading pits really aren't going to be a good way to go, I don't think as they imply a lot more infrastructure at the bases, which would be really unwanted.

Paul

Offline kerick

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2019, 01:59:50 AM »
Loading pits are a lot more work for the ground crews as each aircraft has to be backed over the pit and moved away again. Imagine doing that many times each day!

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2019, 08:24:31 PM »
Can you not just have it flush or very slightly bulged, like the dH Mosquito? ???

Yes, could reduce the bulge but the idea was to increase the capacity quite considerably for the B2 version to take advantage of the super lift Minotaur variant.
With hindsight I think I went too far to be honest.

Bomb loading doors built into the side of the bomb bay?

Sort of like the B24 ?
Thats not a bad idea ;)
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2019, 12:12:41 AM »
Bomb loading doors built into the side of the bomb bay?

Sort of like the B24 ?
Thats not a bad idea ;)
From an engineering POV, it's a really good idea and would give you virtually all the distance between the lower wing surface and the ground to bring in the cookie.

It would imply a sideways loading bomb cart/trolley which would be a little more complicated than the typical WW2 "roll the trolley under the plane and winch up the bombs" approach, but it's not too much of a stretch to add a specialised ground support equipment for a specific and important weapon. A second set of casters, a movable parallelogram frame on the bomb trailer and a screw jack to translate the cookie from under the wing, but beside the bomb bay, to just under the bomb bay and ready to be winched up. Not too hard and no need for extra motors, etc.

It unfortunately would clutter the beautifully clean look of the simple clamshell doors, mind, but could add a more business-like look to things, perhaps.

The B24 doors rolled up on the outside of the fuselage, these would have to roll up internally.

Really do like how this looks.

I'm starting to consider how a Grumman Avenger-based torpedo-bomber would look in this world? More brutish, turret, one big radial powering two wing-mounted lift coils, long bomb bay for a torpedo. A tail dragger for carrier use.   ???

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2019, 02:33:32 AM »


Working on stuffing those big necelles with kit .
Got the Minotaur (Centaurus) sorted but have mated this to earlier AE kit for the time being and I might leave the project for a while because I'm fed up of looking at it :)

Thanks for all the feedback guys and I wish you all a very merry Crimbo and a fantastic New year.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2019, 02:02:33 AM »
Ooooooo! Really like the look of the engine. You've captured the look of a used propeller spline connection perfectly! That's really bloody well done!

Question - in your world does the recip engine have to be directly connected to the lift section or could it be connected to the generators and then run two lift coils out on the winglets? Still thinking of how an Avenger-equivalent might look...

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2019, 06:37:01 AM »
Question - in your world does the recip engine have to be directly connected to the lift section or could it be connected to the generators and then run two lift coils out on the winglets? Still thinking of how an Avenger-equivalent might look...

Yes although these so called uncoupled thrust units were only coming on line at the end of the the 1930's. Thats way my early types, say BoB era Hurricane (Hound) and BF109 (BF219) are twins simply because the power generation train was not powerful enough to power single engine types against the new generation of fast medium bombers that emerged in the 30's.  Once a useful war and fuel load was added a single engined fighter began to lose ground over the twin.

Advances in power generation and conditioning changed this and more conventional weight and drag limitations came into play. However, coupled thrust units remained in use as the whole train could be mounted in a nacelles as per the Wraith but the uncoupled trust units have the field coils (lift generators) that are mounted remotely in winglets  such as the Supermarine Spectre and Spirit the later having ion thrust instead of a prop. Another is the P551 which has remote field coils also but these are later still being the equivalent of the the introduction of the Laminar wing.

I should give some thought to US navy types and a monster Avenger could be very interesting. There is a problem though:
How is this tech being employed in naval hardware and if radical then the nature or attack and defence will be different and so the Avenger as we know it might never have been a development consideration.

The tech in which the ELG for aviation grew out of was that of the aerial battleship so are the navy still flying about or are they using some sort of hybrid ground effect craft. I favour the hybrid which would make attack a different ball game  perhaps.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 06:46:27 AM by Small brown dog »
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2020, 11:15:23 PM »
I should give some thought to US navy types and a monster Avenger could be very interesting. There is a problem though:
How is this tech being employed in naval hardware and if radical then the nature or attack and defence will be different and so the Avenger as we know it might never have been a development consideration.

The tech in which the ELG for aviation grew out of was that of the aerial battleship so are the navy still flying about or are they using some sort of hybrid ground effect craft. I favour the hybrid which would make attack a different ball game  perhaps.
In a world where there are flying warships, the Avenger/torpedo bomber type attack is still valid per our earlier discussion about stabilised, but unguided real torpedoes. They would become even more effective with limited guidance by the end of WW2. Possibly to the point where aerial warships were no longer relevant?

If so surface or ground effect warships would probably com back into vogue, but even then a torpedo is a good way to deliver a warhead to a target and on or near the surface, the guidance problems are even easier, not having to deal with variation in the height dimension.

The real reason these sorts of aircraft would probably still exist is that the stand-off weapon, the torpedo or unguided missile, as the case may be, has a very limited range. You need the bomber to get the weapon within range. The weapon is bulky with the included powerplant and warhead, so a form factor like a torpedo still makes sense, therefore a delivery aircraft like an Avenger still makes sense. And, without a true guidance system you still need to get the weapon close enough so that it's combination of speed and direction by the aircraft that will put the weapon on target. Attack formation would have to account for the 3rd dimension maneuverability of the target.

In fact, far from being eliminated, the ELG world may only have torpedo bombers for anti-ship work as how else are you going to knock out a flying warship? Dive bombing seems to be unlikely unless those dive bombers could _always_ achieve a significant height advantage over the warships. It would, on any existing engine technology base, lead them to being more and more fragile in order to achieve higher and higher altitudes on the limited power available from the recip engines at which point you are not going to dive bomb with them nor are you likely to level bomb as even real world ship maneuvers made level bombing next to useless against surface ships. Stabilised, stand-off weapon launching aircraft would seem to be the best way to attack large, armoured flying targets.

Paul

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2020, 11:30:08 PM »
I'd look at RW events post-WW2 for what would happen in the ELG (?) world.

Aerial battleships would become redundant but cruisers, destroyers & frigates would come into their own, & aircraft carriers would be the capital ships.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2020, 01:15:05 AM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 06:01:12 PM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Sorry, totally missed this. Real life has this freaking habit of getting in the way of the good stuff :)
Interesting and I see where this could go although some sort of vertical stabiliser would be required I think.  I have a couple of things on the go but I think I will block out some ideas to see how they look and post them for feedback.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 01:06:28 AM »
I'm thinking of an Avenger that might look like this with the wings holding two podded lift coils.

Sorry, totally missed this. Real life has this freaking habit of getting in the way of the good stuff :)
Real life is occasionally overrated, but usually wins out in the end! :-)

Quote
Interesting and I see where this could go although some sort of vertical stabiliser would be required I think.
Oh it would absolutely need a vertical stab, but I was thinking that the lift coils out on the end of the winglets would extend back into twin booms to provide the tail surfaces.

Something like this:

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 02:44:21 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 02:52:42 AM »
Something like this:

 :smiley:

Yeah, I could work with this but I do have a habit of going off towards the borders of daft city sometimes so beware.
I need to finish this 12.8CM Flak thing I'm struggling with then I'll block out something
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 08:44:17 AM »
tankmodeler's boom layout severely restricts the functional field of fire of the ball turret; I'd have the booms either shorter or projecting forward, or the fuselage longer, or a bit of all three. ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."