Author Topic: Winged wraiths  (Read 1931 times)

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2020, 10:02:17 PM »
tankmodeler's boom layout severely restricts the functional field of fire of the ball turret; I'd have the booms either shorter or projecting forward, or the fuselage longer, or a bit of all three. ;)

Yes I thought so too re the field of fire.
Its looking a bit P551 as well but I did wonder about perhaps having the payload in deeper nacelles perhaps. I have some other ideas too but it may look a lot Less Avenger-ish which might be a shame now I think about it.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2020, 10:11:52 PM »
I was thinking if you took off about 20-25% of the nacelle length & pushed them forward, so the fronts lined up with the front of the engine cowling, on angled winglets, so you got a V-shaped nacelle-fuselage-nacelle form, it could look pretty funky & give the appropriate cover-yer-arse field of fire.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 10:22:24 PM »
"... the appropriate cover-yer-arse field of fire"

Like that :)
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Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2020, 11:10:51 PM »
In the normal Avenger, the tail sits directly aft of the turret restricting the field of fire dead aft, where one's arse normally is...  :D

The tail will always restrict fire, but in this case I chose to provide explicit cover to the rear, above and below with the rear turret. There is precedent for this as the WWII BV138 had two turrets mounted between two booms and the lower rear turret had the horizontal stab to deal with as well. I've moved all that outboard of the booms.

Moving the lift nacelles forward is fine, but you need to keep the tail aft to actually provide the /righting/turning moment that is what it's used for. Move them forward and they get exponentially bigger. You also have to manage the weight balance fore and aft. You can't have all the mass up forward.

Lastly, angling the booms outwards may look interesting, but would add massively to the drag as the aircraft flew and really degrade not just speed, but handling, especially at low speeds which is where a torpedo bomber spends a lot of time. It would also make carrier landings rather more "sporty".  ???

Paul

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2020, 07:43:57 AM »
Lastly, angling the booms outwards may look interesting, but would add massively to the drag as the aircraft flew and really degrade not just speed, but handling, especially at low speeds which is where a torpedo bomber spends a lot of time. It would also make carrier landings rather more "sporty".  ???

Paul

Nah, mate, I wasn't talking about angling the booms but, rather, the winglets so you got a boom\fuselage/boom arrangement (with \ & / representing the winglets).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 07:45:34 AM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2020, 09:27:02 AM »
Nah, mate, I wasn't talking about angling the booms but, rather, the winglets so you got a boom\fuselage/boom arrangement (with \ & / representing the winglets).
Ahhh! Cranking the winglets out to the nacelles! Gotcha!

But if you did this:
boom/fuselage\boom
The turret would have a better field of fire above the horizon, I think. And, during the bomb run most interceptors would be above the local horizon

And the vertical stabiliser could be reduced if the horizontal stabiliser had a significant dihedral to replace some of the lost vertical surface.

stab/boom     Fuselage     boom\stab

If you see what I'm getting at?

Paul
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:34:53 AM by tankmodeler »

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2020, 10:18:37 AM »
Yup. :smiley:

You could also improve the field of fire by having all the stab's & winglets angled, thusly;
     
>o/O\o<

(fore/aft view)

However, unlike RW, where torpedo planes attack at deck height, which made it easier to defend themselves against fighters & cover their blind spots by yawing the tail from side to side, that's not really possible when attacking aerial warships because they're not floating in the water, so you have to defend below the horizon.

'Tis a conundrum! :-\
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2020, 10:28:42 PM »
However, unlike RW, where torpedo planes attack at deck height, which made it easier to defend themselves against fighters & cover their blind spots by yawing the tail from side to side, that's not really possible when attacking aerial warships because they're not floating in the water, so you have to defend below the horizon.
Yeah, that earlier discussion on how one might employ a torpedo-like weapon in this universe puts it out there. With the raised fuselage and lower tail structure, coupled with the aft turret and the ventral tunnel position (like the Avenger actually had) you do get quite good coverage to the sides and most of the aft cone. You really can't cover the sides below the aircraft centreline, though and, realistically, with a single-engined type it's not going to be possible to provide full coverage.

To provide all-round defensive coverage you need a multi-engined and much larger type, like a Betty or He-111, to allow for the extra gun positions. These aircraft are also large enough that you could expect them to carry two torpedoes, thus being individually more effective than the single-engined type. The problem, just like the RW, is the inability to operate them off carriers. So a smaller payload and smaller defensive capabilities are a result of not being able to manage multi-engined types on carriers.

Or, at least that's how my reasoning goes at the moment...

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2020, 11:15:06 PM »
The problem, just like the RW, is the inability to operate them off carriers. So a smaller payload and smaller defensive capabilities are a result of not being able to manage multi-engined types on carriers.

Or, at least that's how my reasoning goes at the moment...

Paul

You are applying real world carrier problems to my alt universe.
EMFEM amplification especially towards the later part of the war would overcome much of your weight problems.
By default STOL is standard as you only need enough forward speed for the surface controls to bite.
I imagine that a multi engined layout is desirable at sea and with that in mind  - what about the Tigercat ?
A machine like that would have a smaller footprint owing to not requiring the wingspan of the  Tcat.
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Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2020, 12:39:19 AM »
You are applying real world carrier problems to my alt universe.
EMFEM amplification especially towards the later part of the war would overcome much of your weight problems.
By default STOL is standard as you only need enough forward speed for the surface controls to bite.
I imagine that a multi engined layout is desirable at sea and with that in mind  - what about the Tigercat ?
A machine like that would have a smaller footprint owing to not requiring the wingspan of the  Tcat plus that is one horny looking bird :)
Yes, fair enough. STOL it is. In which case large carriers are probably not a thing. If you don't need the large runway to take off on or land on, you don't need a large ship. Smaller carriers along the lines of the Light Fleet carriers (but not slow like the Escort Carriers) but a lot more of them to make up the numbers needed in a strike package.

So, if you are looking at a medium bomber/twin-engined design as a notional torpedo strike craft, but keeping it smaller than an land based medium bomber for better carrier stowage and with a smaller range requirements than a land-based medium, but still with enhanced self protection as a light/medium bomber, then if you look at an Avenger-sized, tubby fuselage (to hold 2 torpedoes) with a nose and tail turret and maybe a remotely operated Bendix turret in the belly, twin engines, twin lift coils, twin booms with the surfaces Wombat was discussing.

Later in the war you could go with an even smaller fuselage, like the A-26 Invader, with more powerful engines, a similar pair of remote upper and lower turrets and maybe a "hard" nose with a couple of 37mm autocanon or a 75mm for light ship busting. Torpedoes could be in semi-recessed mountings under the wing roots.

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

  • Dwelling too long on the practicalities of such things can drive you mad.
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Re: Winged wraiths
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2020, 01:16:00 AM »
with the surfaces Wombat was discussing.


Of course I read it as ... and surface wombats   ;D
Perhaps they could cling to the wings clutching ping pong bats acting as air brakes.

There is plenty here to make the cogs go round and I like the later war idea with the ship busting cannon too ;)
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.