Author Topic: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'  (Read 9777 times)

Offline M.A.D

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RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« on: August 05, 2019, 08:21:24 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

It was a very interesting read, and could help make me do some serious contemplating.

One interesting topic of mention was the suggestion of a 'SLEP' (Shelf Life Extension Program)
for the RAAF's English Electric Canberra.

Realistically, one can not deny that the RAAF's Canberra's had plenty of life and potential left in them, with an in-flight refuelling receptor immediatly coming to mind.......

So I'd like to put it to the forum - how do you think the RAAF could have upgraded it's Canberra light bombers? Your input might go some way in encouraging me to mandate a Canberra SLEP Program into my Alternative ADF ORBAT!!


M.A.D

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 08:49:18 AM »
Upgrade the engines.  That is about all I can think of that they needed, really.   For use in low-level threat environments they were perfect.  Faced with SAMs they weren't, so perhaps some ECM and defensive gear but that might be too late.  I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 10:14:33 AM »
Very interesting idea! Low level strike or anti shipping missions. Definitely need a refueling probe and up to date efficient engines like you said. Did they already carry ECM or targeting pods?
Then there were the secondary roles. Refueller, ELINT and recon?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 10:17:31 AM by kerick »

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2019, 10:50:44 AM »
Upgrade the engines.  That is about all I can think of that they needed, really.   For use in low-level threat environments they were perfect.  Faced with SAMs they weren't, so perhaps some ECM and defensive gear but that might be too late.  I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?

Thanks for your reply Rickshaw
Do you have a suggestion for upgrading the engines?
ECM and defensive gear sounds a sensible proposition, especially with their participation and combat experience in the air war in VietNam.

Quote
I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?
You're spot on Rickshaw, I'm thinking GAF has the skill and knowledge to apply such a SLEP to the Canberra's they'd built, don't you think?


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Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2019, 11:00:48 AM »
Very interesting idea! Low level strike or anti shipping missions. Definitely need a refueling probe and up to date efficient engines like you said. Did they already carry ECM or targeting pods?
Then there were the secondary roles. Refueller, ELINT and recon?

Thanks for your input kerick
I like your notion of low-level strike and anti-shipping!  In the 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage that I've quoted, the suggestion is for the Canberra to carry a couple of Swedish RB04 subsonic anti-ship missiles!
I guess it would require a radar to support this missile. I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04? I guess the same could apply to the Canberra using AGM-62 Walleye television-guided glide bomb, so as to give them a stand-off capability?

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 11:44:08 AM »
Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist and I doubt the RAAF would want to go the route of the RB-57F; so consider re-engining with J52's and get the same thrust in a smaller package.   If there was a second re-engining in the late Seventies or early Eighties, I could see dry F404s or RB199s being used.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 02:10:27 PM »
Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist and I doubt the RAAF would want to go the route of the RB-57F; so consider re-engining with J52's and get the same thrust in a smaller package.   If there was a second re-engining in the late Seventies or early Eighties, I could see dry F404s or RB199s being used.

Speys were available from approximate 1964 onwards.  Conways were available before that in the late 1950s.  Both were turbofan engines.

Basically you'd have at this point in time from the UK, the following engines.  All could fit into the wings of the Canberra (with a little bit of a shoehorn):


   Engine:   Rolls-Royce Avon R.A.7 Mk.109   Rolls Royce Conway Rco.12   Spey Mk 250   Rolls Royce Olympus 101
Length:   126 in (3,200 mm)   132.4 in (3,360 mm)   111 in (2,819.4 mm)   127.1 in (10.59 ft; 3.23 m)   
Diameter:    35.7 in (907 mm)   42 in (1,100 mm)   43.0 in (1092.2 mm)   40 in (3.3 ft; 1.0 m)   
Dry weight:    2,890 lb (1,310 kg)   4,544 lb (2,061 kg)   4,093 lb (1856 kg)   3,615 lb (1,640 kg)   
Maximum thrust:   7,400 lbf (36 kN)   17,500 lb (77.8 kN) @ 9980 rpm (100%)   12,140 lbf (54 kN)   11,000 lbf (49 kN)   
                                       
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:10:41 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2019, 10:12:24 PM »
Yep! definitely upgrade the engines ----   >:D

Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist

Well I would suggest there was ---   ;D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 10:19:31 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 02:24:14 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

Can you post a link to this please.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2019, 02:41:00 AM »
I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04?


Well they could support AS.30s which isn't that far removed in size:





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Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2019, 03:35:11 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

Can you post a link to this please.


Yeah no worries mate:
https://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/512-47952.aspx#startofcomments

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2019, 03:42:54 AM »
I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04?

Well they could support AS.30s which isn't that far removed in size:

Wow, some cool photos Greg, and yes you're correct - RB04: 600 kg (1,300 lb)
AS.30: 520 kg (1,146 lb)

I'm assuming these pictures are RAF Canberra's, what with carrying/trialing of AS.30's?


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« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 04:17:18 AM by M.A.D »

Offline jcf

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2019, 04:56:48 AM »
The RB.168 Spey 202 OAL includes the afterburner, which obviously isn't going to be used in
a Canberra installation. The 250/251, as used in Nimrod, OAL is 117".
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2019, 10:06:44 AM »
The RB.168 Spey 202 OAL includes the afterburner, which obviously isn't going to be used in
a Canberra installation. The 250/251, as used in Nimrod, OAL is 117".

Thank you, Jon.  Much appreciated.  Now corrected.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 02:07:41 AM »
I'm assuming these pictures are RAF Canberra's, what with carrying/trialing of AS.30's?

Correct.  The aircraft shown is RAF Canberra B.15 WH961
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2019, 02:24:32 AM »
Did anyone notice that two of the armourers are wearing flip-flops or barefooted? My NCO would have cut my @(&%*$#&^% off if I did that.

I like the idea of the AS.30.. Noted for a future build.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2019, 02:44:03 AM »
How about a Canberra with a pair of AS.34 Kormorans (600Kg) or AM39 Exocet (670Kg) and dedicated ASW radar in the nose (possibly a Thomson-CSF Agave radar or other)?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2019, 09:46:43 AM »
Did anyone notice that two of the armourers are wearing flip-flops or barefooted? My NCO would have cut my @(&%*$#&^% off if I did that.

Thongs - AKA "Japanese Safety Boots" - were not the usual wear.  However, there were occasional circumstances which would have allowed them to be worn - Tinea for one.   Shortness of time with an armouring task being required "right now!"  Is another.   However, it would be unusual to see them on duty wearing them.   I have a picture of a Centurion crewman in Vietnam unloading his vehicle after it has suffered a mine strike of 20 Pdr Ammunition (which while his tank hadn't been penetrated it had distorted the floor to crease/crush ammunition stored under the turret fighting compartment).  He is wearing thongs.


Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2019, 10:09:21 AM »
How about a Canberra with a pair of AS.34 Kormorans (600Kg) or AM39 Exocet (670Kg) and dedicated ASW radar in the nose (possibly a Thomson-CSF Agave radar or other)?
1980's or mid/late 1970's update?  At least for the Agave radar since it was not flown until the mid-1970's.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2019, 02:44:09 AM »
I was thinking mid-late '70s.  The Exocet, Kormoran and Agave were all in the same timeframe there.  That said, other radars might be added might include something like the AI.23 Airpass II "Blue Parrot" as used on the Blackburn Buccaneer.  This could add in not only weapon guidance but also terrain following.  Hell, for that matter, why not consider a developed version of the Canberra as an alternative/compliment to the Bucc'.  One could also give it not only ASW missiles but also maybe a pair of AIM-9s for self defence.  If done in a later '80s scenario, one might even add in Kormoran 2s or Sea Eagles.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2019, 03:16:40 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2019, 03:29:25 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

Good find Robert. They are AS.30s.

Look at step 32 in the instructions.

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/English-Electric-Canberra-B-I-8-1538951.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:45:02 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2019, 04:11:40 AM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2019, 05:29:44 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

Good find Robert. They are AS.30s.

Look at step 32 in the instructions.

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/English-Electric-Canberra-B-I-8-1538951.html

Yep, those are the one Carl  :smiley:

I'd have thought if they can carry/use that type, then the other types suggested would be no problem.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2019, 09:49:35 AM »
I was thinking mid-late '70s.  The Exocet, Kormoran and Agave were all in the same timeframe there.  That said, other radars might be added might include something like the AI.23 Airpass II "Blue Parrot" as used on the Blackburn Buccaneer.  This could add in not only weapon guidance but also terrain following.  Hell, for that matter, why not consider a developed version of the Canberra as an alternative/compliment to the Bucc'.  One could also give it not only ASW missiles but also maybe a pair of AIM-9s for self defence.  If done in a later '80s scenario, one might even add in Kormoran 2s or Sea Eagles.
"Blue Parrot", AS30's, and dry Spey's for a mid-1960's update?  With the Agave and later ASM's for a late-1970's follow-on CILOP program (with or without another engine replacement)?

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2019, 10:01:04 AM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?

I'm guessing a fixed probe to the right of the cockpit, similar to the A-4G's, or a folding probe in the same place, similar to the A-7's - depending on how much work you wanted to put into maintaining a more streamlined shape.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2019, 10:56:48 AM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?

I'm guessing a fixed probe to the right of the cockpit, similar to the A-4G's, or a folding probe in the same place, similar to the A-7's - depending on how much work you wanted to put into maintaining a more streamlined shape.


Pretty much the same conclusions I had with the IFR probe.  On the Canberra it would probably be best to go with the A-4/A-3 style probe attached along the side of the fuselage.  On the B-57 there might be a bit more wiggle room for an A-7 or Tornado style semi-retracting probe as there would be room for the extension/retraction mechanism within the fuselage.  My own personal preference for the B-57 would be to have both the boom receptacle and probe and drogue style IFR features on the aircraft.  The A-7/Tornado style along the side of the fuselage and the boom receptacle located behind the canopy on top of the fuselage.  An alternate location for the boom receptacle might be on the inboard wing leading edge (like the F-84G Thunderjet).
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2019, 11:14:35 AM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?

I'm guessing a fixed probe to the right of the cockpit, similar to the A-4G's, or a folding probe in the same place, similar to the A-7's - depending on how much work you wanted to put into maintaining a more streamlined shape.

I too immediately thought of the fixed In-Flight Refueling probe of the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk. I'm thinking it would be plumbed externally-mounted, so as to save time/cost routing it through the inside of the Canberra.

Getting back to the notion of a more effective  'strike bomber' SLEP, with the ability to use RB04 missiles as a stand-off weapon against both ships and important land targets, I envisaged the RAAF simply adapting the Ericsson mapping and navigation radar, from the Saab A-32 Lansen; this radar worked in conjunction with the RB04 anti-ship missile, to the Canberra
The forward antenna of the Ericsson mapping and navigation radar being housed in a large blister fairing underneath the fuselage. The Canberra's bomb bay being utilised for a long-range fuel tank and or removable 30mm ADEN cannon pallet or a removable EW/ECM pallet.


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« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 12:08:45 PM by M.A.D »

Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2019, 12:13:32 PM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?

I'm guessing a fixed probe to the right of the cockpit, similar to the A-4G's, or a folding probe in the same place, similar to the A-7's - depending on how much work you wanted to put into maintaining a more streamlined shape.


Pretty much the same conclusions I had with the IFR probe.  On the Canberra it would probably be best to go with the A-4/A-3 style probe attached along the side of the fuselage.  On the B-57 there might be a bit more wiggle room for an A-7 or Tornado style semi-retracting probe as there would be room for the extension/retraction mechanism within the fuselage.  My own personal preference for the B-57 would be to have both the boom receptacle and probe and drogue style IFR features on the aircraft.  The A-7/Tornado style along the side of the fuselage and the boom receptacle located behind the canopy on top of the fuselage.  An alternate location for the boom receptacle might be on the inboard wing leading edge (like the F-84G Thunderjet).
I like the idea of having both refueling capabilities.  It costs a bit in weight and complexity, but it allows you to refuel from any tanker out there and I consider that a useful trait.   

Theoretically, if one wanted to pay for the engineering and accept the additional weight, there is no reason why a F-35A derivative could not have both (call it the F-35D for "Dual Refueling').

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2019, 03:09:11 PM »
One problem with a refueling probe on the right side of the Canberra's fuselage.  There is a crew access door there.   It might make life a little bit difficult with getting in and out of the aircraft for the crew!

I'd question installing a flight refueling probe on an RAAF Canberra.  The RAAF didn't have any flight refuellers available before their acquisition of ex-QANTAS 707s in 1988,  So, unless you want to purchase some flight refuellers as well as updating your Canberras, they won't be doing much refueling while flying.

I'd much rather go for updated engines, more avionics (ie radar, ECM) and new guided weapons (Exocet. Kormoran, Penguin, RB04)

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 04:39:31 PM »
I'd question installing a flight refueling probe on an RAAF Canberra.  The RAAF didn't have any flight refuellers available before their acquisition of ex-QANTAS 707s in 1988,  So, unless you want to purchase some flight refuellers as well as updating your Canberras, they won't be doing much refueling while flying.

The money saved on upgrade vs the purchase, infustructure, training of a new strike aircraft - be it A-5B Vigilante, TRS.2 or TFX will undoubtedly leave the Australian government/RAAF with money for a proper and sensible air refuelling tanker fleet to support the SLEP Canberra's. Add to this the reality that such a tanker fleet, no matter how small, will be utilised by other RAAF/RAN assets. Add to this even further, the use of airborne refuelling tankers will add to the points of the compass that SLEP Canberra's will be able to attack given targets - circumnavigate around known air-defence threats, etc...

In fact, I'm sure someone in the original forum I mentioned earlier suggested modifying some of the Canberra's to act as surrogate airborne refuelling aircraft, so as to support the 'strike' SLEP Canberra's to their targets - aka Douglas A-4 Skyhawk buddy/buddy system like!!

 
Quote
I'd much rather go for updated engines, more avionics (ie radar, ECM) and new guided weapons (Exocet. Kormoran, Penguin, RB04)

Granted, the updated engines, avionics and weapons will be a must!!


I'm wounding if it would be feasible for GAF to build and graft Canberra B(I).8 forward fuselage and cockpit to the existing RAAF Canberra's? By doing so, increasing crew operability, comfort and safety .....

M.A.D





« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 08:14:57 PM by M.A.D »

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 09:49:49 PM »
If you want to get the most from a SLEP aircraft AAR would be a must have. Don’t forget the advantage of working with allied Air Forces that use AAR.
As to where to put the probe, running it down the side of the fuselage to some point where it would connect to the main fuel tanks would make the most sense. Something like the A-3 Skywarrior. Not the most elegant solution but probably the most practical.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2019, 03:21:32 AM »
Canberra with Refueling probe:




And also operating in a buddy refuelling style role:


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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2019, 03:51:24 AM »
Some additional thoughts for this, assuming we are looking at a RAAF platform:

  • Maybe have the scenario be that in the early 60s when the RAAF was considering the Canberra replacement, there is a recession or at least economic slowdown (or perhaps simply the options to replace are deemed too expensive).  Either way, the decision is made to not replace the Canberras but rather to keep them in service.  This removes the F-111 etc from the picture and gives a reason for upgrades.
  • Another, less savoury scenario, is that in the 1960s as countries started to condemn Sth Africa over its apartheid policies, Australia decides to stand with Sth Africa.  As such sanctions also are applied to Australia (or at least major orders such as F-111s etc are prevented from occurring.  As such, the Canberras are forced to soldier on.

The issue with these scenarios though is that they might restrict the sort of fancy upgrades some are thinking of.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2019, 04:08:01 AM »
As to where to put the probe, running it down the side of the fuselage to some point where it would connect to the main fuel tanks would make the most sense. Something like the A-3 Skywarrior.

Yes, exactly like the A-3 kerick!

Thanks for your input

M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2019, 04:10:41 AM »
Canberra with Refueling probe:




And also operating in a buddy refuelling style role:



Nice find Greg!!😯
So it isn't too far out there then, and hence encouraging

Thanks mate

M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2019, 04:12:41 AM »
Going back to possible more fanciful ideas:

Add in rocket boost:




The "T.22" radar trainer configuration, were actually fitted with an extended "pointy nose" to house the "Blue Parrot" radar fitted to the Royal Navy's Blackburn Buccaneer strike aircraft:





Plus you can get conversion kits:



Other engine options:

Bristol Olympus 104 powered, real world version:




The Olympus 104 engines providing 58 kN (13,000 lb) thrust each compared to the RR Avon RA.3 Mk. 101 engines which were rated at 28.9 kN (6500 lb) each.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 05:51:27 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2019, 04:25:22 AM »
Some additional thoughts for this, assuming we are looking at a RAAF platform:

  • Maybe have the scenario be that in the early 60s when the RAAF was considering the Canberra replacement, there is a recession or at least economic slowdown (or perhaps simply the options to replace are deemed too expensive).  Either way, the decision is made to not replace the Canberras but rather to keep them in service.  This removes the F-111 etc from the picture and gives a reason for upgrades.
  • Another, less savoury scenario, is that in the 1960s as countries started to condemn Sth Africa over its apartheid policies, Australia decides to stand with Sth Africa.  As such sanctions also are applied to Australia (or at least major orders such as F-111s etc are prevented from occurring.  As such, the Canberras are forced to soldier on.

The issue with these scenarios though is that they might restrict the sort of fancy upgrades some are thinking of.

Thanks again Greg for giving scenarios a thought mate.
I've long been contemplating a two-path scenario background option for the Alternative ADF ORBAT, which I'll PM you about your thoughts, if you wouldn't mind?

Hence this forum subject, as to whether I can keep the Cambarra valid and cost effective as an offensive platform; or look at other options that are not TRS.2 or TFX, as they go against my backstorys mantra that the ADF reframe from cost and operational risk of not committing/purchasing 'off the board' weapons/weapons systems.

M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 04:31:11 AM by M.A.D »

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2019, 05:49:05 AM »
Just a thought, perhaps the SLEP might also include the B-57's rotary bomb bay?  I can see that simplifying a few things.   I know EE looked at doing one but could never sell it to the RAF.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2019, 07:20:09 AM »
Just a thought, perhaps the SLEP might also include the B-57's rotary bomb bay?  I can see that simplifying a few things.   I know EE looked at doing one but could never sell it to the RAF.

Probably because of the RAF's aversion to the Buccaneer that the Navy was trying to push onto them   ----   ;D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 07:26:57 AM »
Just a thought, perhaps the SLEP might also include the B-57's rotary bomb bay?  I can see that simplifying a few things.   I know EE looked at doing one but could never sell it to the RAF.

Probably because of the RAF's aversion to the Buccaneer that the Navy was trying to push onto them   ----   ;D
All the more reason, then, for the RAAF to adopt it for their Canberra SLEP.  If they get aerial refueling support earlier, perhaps some of the saved money could go toward purchasing Buccaneers?

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 05:31:12 PM »
In 1969, the USAF had successfully  modified sixteen Martin B-57B's into Martin B-57G's under the project name 'Tropic Moon' The interesting thing to me is that these B-57G's were equipped with a laser guidance system that supported the carrying and launching of up to four 500-lb "smart bombs" on the underwing pylons. These B-57G were used in combat from September 1970.

So I'm thinking, with US approval, the laser guidance system and Paveway might be made available to the RAAF and utilised on the SLEP Canberra Mk 20's for stand-off precision strike. 😯

M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2019, 07:14:11 PM »
I think you'd need B-57 noses to make that actually work.  Nose changes were relatively simple as the Canberra proved.  All you needed to do was unbolt the nose at the pressure joint and bolt a new one on.  It was how the B(I)8 was developed and the PR9 created,  As the B-57 was essentially a Canberra with the exception of the nose and the rotating bomb bay you should be able to fit a B-57 nose to a Canberra fuselage without too much trouble.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2019, 09:42:50 PM »
The B57 nose would also give you the safety of twin ejection seats, as opposed to the B(I)8 set up of ejector seat for the pilot, out the side door for the navigator.

With the B57 nose you could add the B57G equipment fit "easily" without the need to try and fit it round the B(I)8 nose set up.

Fingers twitching for B57G Style GAF Canberra profiles!!

Cheers

Mark
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:54:56 PM by Jonesthetank »

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2019, 02:13:46 AM »
Did Aus ever consider the Nimrod? If so then the
Spey 250/251 would make sense for the Canberra
SLEP due to commonality.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2019, 03:08:20 AM »
As the B-57 was essentially a Canberra with the exception of the nose and the rotating bomb bay


And the engines.  The Canberras had RR Avons whereas the B-57s, for the most part, had Wright J65s which were in essence, license built Armstrong Siddeley Sapphires.  Supposedly the The this change was driven due to the USAF's need for operations within hot climates and intention to fly at a slightly higher maximum gross weight than the RAF's operating practices.  Both of these could also have been carried over to the RAAF (with the original Canberra acquisition).  Perhaps a different Canberra B.20 would be the B.2 with additional fuel tanks in the wings plus Armstrong Siddeley Sapphires.  This could also possibly spur a Sapphire Sabre as well instead of the Avon Sabre...

The B-57 also had either eight 12.7 mm Browning machine guns or four 20mm M39 cannon in the wings.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 05:27:14 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2019, 03:34:30 AM »
The B57 nose would also give you the safety of twin ejection seats, as opposed to the B(I)8 set up of ejector seat for the pilot, out the side door for the navigator


I don't think so, the other crew were also on ejection seats.
Top pic shows where the two crew behind the pilot sat on theirs (for the bubble canopy variants), bottom pic shows the hatch above the navigator (for the B(I).8 types)

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2019, 03:52:37 AM »
In 1969, the USAF had successfully  modified sixteen Martin B-57B's into Martin B-57G's under the project name 'Tropic Moon' The interesting thing to me is that these B-57G's were equipped with a laser guidance system that supported the carrying and launching of up to four 500-lb "smart bombs" on the underwing pylons. These B-57G were used in combat from September 1970.

So I'm thinking, with US approval, the laser guidance system and Paveway might be made available to the RAAF and utilised on the SLEP Canberra Mk 20's for stand-off precision strike. 😯

I had thought of LGB equipped Canberras as well - especially when i saw this image in my searches:



I think you'd need B-57 noses to make that actually work.  Nose changes were relatively simple as the Canberra proved.  All you needed to do was unbolt the nose at the pressure joint and bolt a new one on. 

The B-57G took a bit more than just the nose change - see here:



Of course there are other options too, depending upon era.  For instance, one could simply fit a AN/AVQ-10 Pave Knife targeting pod (as was used on some Vietnam era F-4s and A-6s:





Pave Knife is available in kit form too. ;)
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2019, 05:16:31 AM »
This could also possibly spur a Sapphire Sabre as well instead of the Avon Sabre...

I just remembered that the North American FJ-3 and FJ-4 Fury both had a J65 so perhaps my idea is not so far-fetched after all.  Therefore a RAAF B.20 fitted with Armstrong Siddeley Sapphires could also result in the CAC Sabre being the Sapphire Sabre.  this would also result in commonality with the A-4Gs squired later on.  We may even see a Sapphire Mirage development (mirroring the real world Avon Mirage).  Ah, the twists one simple change to history could take...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 05:44:51 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2019, 06:17:29 AM »
Did Aus ever consider the Nimrod? If so then the
Spey 250/251 would make sense for the Canberra
SLEP due to commonality.

Australia did evaluate the Nimrod - see here.  I suppose if the HSA bid had come off one could see the Canberras being given an update.  One would still probably need to remove the F-111 from the scene though.  Alternatively, perhaps the RAAF decides to keep them in service (they did last on to 1982).  Thus one might have even seen some thing like this more often:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2019, 11:48:55 AM »
Did Aus ever consider the Nimrod? If so then the
Spey 250/251 would make sense for the Canberra
SLEP due to commonality.

It was, apparently offered the Nimrod but chose the P-3 instead.   Nimrod would be interesting with leaping Kangaroos on it.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2019, 11:52:25 AM »
This could also possibly spur a Sapphire Sabre as well instead of the Avon Sabre...

I just remembered that the North American FJ-3 and FJ-4 Fury both had a J65 so perhaps my idea is not so far-fetched after all.  Therefore a RAAF B.20 fitted with Armstrong Siddeley Sapphires could also result in the CAC Sabre being the Sapphire Sabre.  this would also result in commonality with the A-4Gs squired later on.  We may even see a Sapphire Mirage development (mirroring the real world Avon Mirage).  Ah, the twists one simple change to history could take...
Wonder if that would have also seen the RAN acquiring late-model F11F-1s with the J65/Sapphire?

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2019, 04:27:04 PM »
Quote
Speys were available from approximate 1964 onwards. Conways were available before that in the late 1950s.  Both were turbofan engines.

Basically you'd have at this point in time from the UK, the following engines.  All could fit into the wings of the Canberra (with a little bit of a shoehorn):

-Rickshaw


Quote
The RB.168 Spey 202 OAL includes the afterburner, which obviously isn't going to be used in
a Canberra installation. The 250/251, as used in Nimrod, OAL is 117".

-jcf

Thank you Rickshaw and jcf, in truth the Spey plays into my Alternative ADF ORBAT, as you see, when I finally posted the bloody thing 😩
So does the forum think that the Spey 250/251 would fit into the existing Canberra Mk20's engine cowling (what with the difference in diameter between the existing Avon and proposed Spey? I think it goes without saying that an engine change would be a major part of this Canberra SLEP project, but so would it's cost contribution, if it nesesitated a major engineering rework or the existing engine mount......

Thanks again for your contribution and input!!

As a side note, does anyone know the specific Rolls-Royce Spey model (designation) that was proposed by Douglas to be fitted to its proposed Spey CA-4E Skyhawk design???

I'm sure in an article I read that it said it was the same non-afterburning variant as used on the Nimrod.....If so, this would be awesome in relation to my Alternative ADF ORBAT😯


M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 04:33:52 PM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2019, 04:47:46 PM »
Quote
I had thought of LGB equipped Canberras as well - especially when i saw this image in my searches:



This was also spacifically the artwork that prompted me also Greg!

Quote
Of course there are other options too, depending upon era.  For instance, one could simply fit a AN/AVQ-10 Pave Knife targeting pod (as was used on some Vietnam era F-4s and A-6s:

Nice, very nice Greg!!
What do you think is the most efficient/effective way we'd carry the 'Pave Knife' on the Canberra Mk20 Greg? Semi-recessed in the bomb bay? Under one of the outer wings (keeping in mind the size and weight of the Rb 04 or Walleye I'm envisaging.....

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2019, 04:53:07 PM »
The B57 nose would also give you the safety of twin ejection seats, as opposed to the B(I)8 set up of ejector seat for the pilot, out the side door for the navigator.

With the B57 nose you could add the B57G equipment fit "easily" without the need to try and fit it round the B(I)8 nose set up.

Fingers twitching for B57G Style GAF Canberra profiles!!

Cheers

Mark

Love your enthusiasm Mark!! 👍
Just collating an email in response to your last mate. I'll include some thought, we'll chew the fat, and hopefully eleviate that twitch 😂😂

M.A.D

Offline Jonesthetank

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2019, 07:42:13 PM »
Quote
The B57 nose would also give you the safety of twin ejection seats, as opposed to the B(I)8 set up of ejector seat for the pilot, out the side door for the navigator


I don't think so, the other crew were also on ejection seats.
Top pic shows where the two crew behind the pilot sat on theirs (for the bubble canopy variants), bottom pic shows the hatch above the navigator (for the B(I).8 types)

I hate to argue (just ask my wife!) but the B(I)8 was designed with the bombardier/navigator sitting below and to the right of the pilot.

“It was obvious to everyone that a new intruder Canberra needed the new fighter-type cockpit arrangement and it was also proposed that the navigator/bomb-aimer’s seat should be moved forward and repositioned beside the pilot, inside the fuselage. This was a logical arrangement, but only the pilot was to be given an ejection seat and it was decided that the navigator would rely instead on manual egress through the fuselage door. This was undoubtedly a bad decision for an aircraft that was destined to spend most of its fl ying time at low level and even more than fifty years later it is still difficult to understand why the “intruder” Canberra’s peculiar arrangement was adopted, especially when the Canberra had already captured the interest of the USAF and the American manufacturer Martin had swiftly devised a much better tandem seating arrangement for its B-57 derivative. Why English Electric never embraced a similar design (or simply adopted the design created by Martin) is a mystery.”
Aeroplane Illustrated – Aeroplane Icons
Canberra – Britain’s first jet bomber


British engineering at it's best.  Stick the nav inside the fuselage, where he had to shove open a door to get out!

Stages 6 to 10 of the Airfix instructions sort of show the arrangement.
https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf

Quote
The B57 nose would also give you the safety of twin ejection seats, as opposed to the B(I)8 set up of ejector seat for the pilot, out the side door for the navigator.

With the B57 nose you could add the B57G equipment fit "easily" without the need to try and fit it round the B(I)8 nose set up.

Fingers twitching for B57G Style GAF Canberra profiles!!

Cheers

Mark

Love your enthusiasm Mark!! 👍
Just collating an email in response to your last mate. I'll include some thought, we'll chew the fat, and hopefully eleviate that twitch 😂😂

M.A.D

Rob, I am at your disposal!

Cheers

Mark


Offline Volkodav

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2019, 08:15:26 PM »
I was thinking mid-late '70s.  The Exocet, Kormoran and Agave were all in the same timeframe there.  That said, other radars might be added might include something like the AI.23 Airpass II "Blue Parrot" as used on the Blackburn Buccaneer.  This could add in not only weapon guidance but also terrain following.  Hell, for that matter, why not consider a developed version of the Canberra as an alternative/compliment to the Bucc'.  One could also give it not only ASW missiles but also maybe a pair of AIM-9s for self defence.  If done in a later '80s scenario, one might even add in Kormoran 2s or Sea Eagles.

Wait a second! I recall being slapped down by someone a few years back for saying the bucc used a version of the Airpass, can you please provide the reference for this so if I can ever remember the forum or the person concerned I can throw it in their face?  If I recall correctly the person basically said I didn't know what I was talking about and the Bucc used the Blue Parrot not the Airpass, now it turns out the Airpass II is the frigging Blue Parrot and I've been shouted down by a half smart, half knowledgeable expert in one-upmanship yet again.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
PMSL it was on the referenced Lightening thread that I started a decade ago! Also it was an incorrect correction not a slap down, I am overly sensitive sometimes.... must be the autism.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 08:42:09 PM by Volkodav »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2019, 10:23:45 PM »
I have postulated previously about an evolved Olympus Canberra incorporating an B-57 type tandem cockpit, I wonder if such an aircraft could result from a remanufacturing program by GAF?   Olympus was trialed very early in the aircrafts service and impressed the test pilots, while the tandem cockpit was a feature of the later Martin licenced aircraft, both would/ should have been quite easy to incorporate into the type, even as a retro fit as part of an extensive upgrade.


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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2019, 04:00:44 AM »
Did Aus ever consider the Nimrod? If so then the
Spey 250/251 would make sense for the Canberra
SLEP due to commonality.

It was, apparently offered the Nimrod but chose the P-3 instead.   Nimrod would be interesting with leaping Kangaroos on it.

Did you read the post immediately beforehand?
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2019, 04:31:15 AM »
So does the forum think that the Spey 250/251 would fit into the existing Canberra Mk20's engine cowling (what with the difference in diameter between the existing Avon and proposed Spey? I think it goes without saying that an engine change would be a major part of this Canberra SLEP project, but so would it's cost contribution, if it nesesitated a major engineering rework or the existing engine mount......

Standard Canberra B.20
Engines:  Avon R.A.3 Mk.101-3
Engine Weight: 1518kg
Engine Diameter: 0.991m
Engine Length: 3.2m
Engine Thrust: 6500lb
Nimrod MR.2 (and also potentially modified Canberra SLEP)
Engines:  Spey RB.168 Mk.250
Engine Weight: 1243kg  (thus lighter than Avons)
Engine Diameter: 0.826m (thus smaller than Avons)
Engine Length: 2.972m (thus smaller than Avons)
Engine Thrust:  11995lb

I think it goes without saying that an engine change would be a major part of this Canberra SLEP project

I actually disagree.  The Avon could have been kept and focus given more to other systems.  Remember that the RAF kept the Canberra PR9 in operational service until July 2006 with RR Avons.  There was no need to do an engine replacement even though they originally entered service between 1958 and 1962.
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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2019, 05:06:44 AM »
What do you think is the most efficient/effective way we'd carry the 'Pave Knife' on the Canberra Mk20 Greg? Semi-recessed in the bomb bay? Under one of the outer wings (keeping in mind the size and weight of the Rb 04 or Walleye I'm envisaging.....

The Pave Knife weighed 550kg and was not exactly small.  It probably depends upon what other changes one made.  For instance, if adopting the B-57's rotating bomb bay one might fit it there and rotate open in flight to use.  Not sure exact dimensions of weapons bay here either and whether there would also be room for a pair of small LGBs to be carried internally as well.

One could also just put it on a wing pylon.  If you did go for more powerful engines, one could get away with this and indeed use more pylons under wing ala the B-57:



For something more radical, maybe fit it to a wingtip ala this proposed version trialing hydrogen (I'm mainly using the image to show what a large wing tip pod might look like):

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2019, 05:37:24 AM »
Quote

I don't think so, the other crew were also on ejection seats.
Top pic shows where the two crew behind the pilot sat on theirs (for the bubble canopy variants), bottom pic shows the hatch above the navigator (for the B(I).8 types)

I hate to argue (just ask my wife!) but the B(I)8 was designed with the bombardier/navigator sitting below and to the right of the pilot.

“It was obvious to everyone that a new intruder Canberra needed the new fighter-type cockpit arrangement and it was also proposed that the navigator/bomb-aimer’s seat should be moved forward and repositioned beside the pilot, inside the fuselage. This was a logical arrangement, but only the pilot was to be given an ejection seat and it was decided that the navigator would rely instead on manual egress through the fuselage door. This was undoubtedly a bad decision for an aircraft that was destined to spend most of its fl ying time at low level and even more than fifty years later it is still difficult to understand why the “intruder” Canberra’s peculiar arrangement was adopted, especially when the Canberra had already captured the interest of the USAF and the American manufacturer Martin had swiftly devised a much better tandem seating arrangement for its B-57 derivative. Why English Electric never embraced a similar design (or simply adopted the design created by Martin) is a mystery.”
Aeroplane Illustrated – Aeroplane Icons
Canberra – Britain’s first jet bomber


British engineering at it's best.  Stick the nav inside the fuselage, where he had to shove open a door to get out!

Stages 6 to 10 of the Airfix instructions sort of show the arrangement.
https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf

Cheers

Mark

I stand corrected  :-[

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2019, 11:12:18 AM »
Did Aus ever consider the Nimrod? If so then the
Spey 250/251 would make sense for the Canberra
SLEP due to commonality.

It was, apparently offered the Nimrod but chose the P-3 instead.   Nimrod would be interesting with leaping Kangaroos on it.

Did you read the post immediately beforehand?

Nope, 'cause that was on the next page to the post I replied to...

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2019, 04:49:04 AM »
Some more inspiration (of sorts).  Maybe do something similar to the proposed Sud-aviation upgraded Vautour, the Tsiklon.  This was to have had 2 RR Spey engines, modern electronics, pointed nose:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2019, 12:09:48 PM »
Rather like my B-57E Super Canberra




Offline finsrin

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2019, 01:21:34 PM »
B-57E Super Canberra  8)

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Offline Geoff

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2019, 09:39:32 PM »
Sorry this is a bit off piste - so admin delete if I am out of order. I was once thinking about a New Zealand upgrade for a Kahu Canberra. To save costs my idea was to fit an F-4 radome  which looks like a reasonable fit. (I am a modeller and not an engineer) This would give enough space for whatever electronics needed. These might even be fitted at a later date like out Tonka F2 "Blue Circle radars". I do like the idea of re-engining  tem with the same engine as the A-4s for commonality of spares. Really do like the idea of the B-57G nose fit though that sounds like a winner as all the R+D had been done.

Offline apophenia

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2019, 06:28:55 AM »
I like your Kahu Canberra concept! On powerplants, no reason you couldn't replace the Avons with the A-4's J52s (if you can find the extra 6 cm for diameter).

But what about going further? Do a Singapore-style Super Kahu Skyhawk upgrade to F404-GE-100 ... which actually has the same diameter as the Avon, so re-engining the Kahu Canberra would be made simpler. Plus you're getting a much more fuel-efficient modern engine for both airframes.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2019, 06:43:52 AM »
Of course, with F404's you also have to redesign the nacelles to accommodate the AMAD gearbox they use instead of engine mounted accessories.  Singapore did it on their Super Skyhawks but it only shows on the bottom where there are new access panels and an exhaust for the air turbine starter - these are not depicted on the Hasegawa 1/38 A-4S kits.  Still, it wouldn't be impossible to add such to the Canberras and nacelles would be easier to modify than fuselages.

kerick

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2019, 10:52:28 AM »
In the timeframe mentioned earlier was it possible to buy used or new Canberras to use as refuelers? Extra fuel and the hose system in the bomb bay. The question for me would there be dedicated refuelers or kits that could be switched from one aircraft to another.
The Buccaneer radar sounds like a great idea. Sounds like it would give the best variety of stores. The Pave Knife pod sounds great too. While we are at it a SLEP should include reinforcement of the airframe to allow additional hard points for weapons or ECM pods.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2019, 01:53:42 PM »
If  you are going to do a major SLEP, why not go with a rotating bomb bay like that of the B-57 and Buccaneer?  ISTR that EE schemed one up for the Canberra, but there was no official interest.  That would allow you to develop several "plug and play" modules for different roles - refueling, reconnaissance, ECM, etc. - much as was done with, and proposed for the Buccaneer.

Offline Geoff

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2019, 05:20:59 AM »
I did think that a big problem for kiwi was cost. I like the idea of the F-404s though, and that could role on to the A-4 fleet later as well. I don't think they could afford such things as rotating bomb bays. As it stands the bay can be used for cannon or weapons. An air to air refuelling set up was also flown as was shown earlier, with AAR boom. The biggest improvement to my mind is an anti-ship missile system, perhaps Sea eagle or even Exocet, or Harpoon.
The other need would be for a defence system - chaff/flare - ECM etc. We killed the Argentine Cans with Sidewinders IIRC
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 06:05:23 PM by Geoff »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2019, 09:19:34 AM »
In the timeframe mentioned earlier was it possible to buy used or new Canberras to use as refuelers?

The British had large numbers of ex-RAF machines after ~1960 when the V-Bombers had replaced them in Bomber Command.  The Canberra might have only been classed as a medium bomber but in the early-mid-1950s because of a lack of availability of real strategic bombers, it was used in that role.  This meant that they were quite willing and able to refurbish them and sell them off to various South American countries.   What they didn't sell, they broke up.  If the Kiwis came to them in say the early 1970s, they'd be able to show them a large range of low mark Canberras.   I'm sure, if the Kiwis wanted to buy them, they would also be quite willing to offer to refurbish them however the customer wanted.  Australia also had a few Canberras spare in the mid-late-1960s after they had been replaced by the F-111s.  I'm sure a deal could be worked out for them as well.


kerick

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2019, 10:17:25 AM »
I’m imagining a Canberra force performing long range strike, anti shipping and recon. Would a camera pack in the bomb bay be practical? Buccaneer radar for the strike role with missiles as mentioned. Then a set of Canberras as refuelers for other Canberras and Skyhawks plus what other aircraft might arrive. The ability to refuel allied aircraft being considered a major help to regional security.
I’m just talking off the top of my head here so I hope this makes sense. I find this discussion very interesting. Full of some nice whiff possibilities.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2019, 02:56:04 AM »
Australia also had a few Canberras spare in the mid-late-1960s after they had been replaced by the F-111s.

Mid to late '60s?  Only if we change the timeline further.  The RAAF F-111s didn't arrive in Australia until 1973 (hence why we had F-4Es from 1970-73).  The Canberras might have started being offered in the early '70s at best.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2019, 08:13:19 AM »
Australia also had a few Canberras spare in the mid-late-1960s after they had been replaced by the F-111s.

Mid to late '60s?  Only if we change the timeline further.  The RAAF F-111s didn't arrive in Australia until 1973 (hence why we had F-4Es from 1970-73).  The Canberras might have started being offered in the early '70s at best.

Canberra squadrons started disbanding in the late 1960s.  No 1 Squadron ceased operating Canberras in 1968.  No.6 Squadron ceased operating Canberras in 1970.  No.2 operated the Canberra until 1982.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2019, 02:07:54 AM »
Canberra squadrons started disbanding in the late 1960s.  No 1 Squadron ceased operating Canberras in 1968.  No.6 Squadron ceased operating Canberras in 1970.  No.2 operated the Canberra until 1982.

Check your facts:

  • No1 & 6 SQNs did not relinquish their Canberras until 1970 (late 1970 at that) - yes conversion training may have commenced with crews of No.1 SQN earlier but they were still operating Canberras until 1970
  • The first RAAF Canberras were not approved for disposal until late 1971 and actual disposal was not until 1972 if not later
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2019, 10:38:17 AM »
I did check my facts.  Obviously the websites I gleaned that information from was wrong, Greg.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2019, 09:14:36 PM »
We don't seem to have a Canberra ideas and inspiration topic so I hope no one objects to me using this one.

How about a fighter version of the Canberra, not just radar fitted etc. but more along the lines of the Hornet vs the Mustang, or the Cobra verses the Huey?

Canberra wings and engines with a narrow diameter fuselage, tandem cockpit, radar, cannons, etc.

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2019, 11:32:46 PM »
We don't seem to have a Canberra ideas and inspiration topic so I hope no one objects to me using this one.


It would appear that your search was incomplete: Beyond The Sprues » Modelling » Ideas & Inspiration » Aero-space » English Electric and Martin B-57 Canberra
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2019, 08:30:42 PM »
Thanks