Author Topic: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives  (Read 29942 times)

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« on: February 12, 2012, 06:13:27 PM »
G’day gents

I've once again been looking through Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects (page 50 & 51) - the precursor to the F-100 Super Sabre!

I'm thinking of a backstory pertaining to a more conservative evolution of the F-86 Sabre design by North American Aviation, as opposed to them taking a more riskier and expensive jump directly to the F-100 Super Sabre.
As in the case of the Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau did with their improving of the combat tested and proven MiG-15 Fagot, which evolved into the improved MiG-17 Fresco, before they took the jump to the supersonic and more radical MiG-19 Farmer design!

So it is, that I'm hoping, that someone out there might have 3-view drawings or profiles of the proposed 'Advanced F-86 / Sabre 45' or if someone is willing to have a crack at creating some of these 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' profiles. 

P.S. I have to apologise, as I only have this picture from the book!!

M.A.D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 05:15:08 PM by M.A.D »

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 06:14:26 AM »
MAD, have you tried contacting Tony Buttler ?

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 07:42:33 PM »
Thanks kitnut617 for the heads up  ;)
Would love too!!
Can you PM a C/P for him please??

M.A.D

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 12:59:21 AM »
Hi, I asked Tony if it's alright to give out his details and this was his reply:

Hello Robert.
Hope all is well. Thanks for your message.
 
I had read this comment on the secretprojects forum. You are welcome to pass my details to your contact, but there are currently no drawings of these designs available.
 
I understand that the North American archive still exists but its huge size has (so far) prevented any chance of the public being able to view it. Consequently, for projects after about 1948/49 (which are not in the National archives) there is no supporting documentation to provide data (dimensions, weights, performance, etc) and of course 3-view drawings. I have tried lots of other potential NAA contacts (and still do) but with no luck as yet. The one chap who I think may have been able to help was not happy to send me copies of project drawings because he did not wish to break the very tight secrecy restrictions (even though this stuff is 60+ years old).
 
Sorry I cannot say anymore - I too would love to see drawings of these designs myself.
 
Very best wishes,
Tony.

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 08:06:22 AM »
Post war thru 50s planes in general of all nations are favorites of mine.  This captures that era well.  Makes for more kit bashing thought.
Without thinking about it as such when building.  I feel Spider Venom has that 1950ish look/feel to it.
Looking forward to what you can come up with......  :)
Bill

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 02:28:35 PM »
I will have a read on the section of the book on the weekend - it might be possible to draw something up based upon the model photos and description.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 02:57:14 PM »
Thank you kitnut617 for your time and effort in forwarding my enquiry to Tony Buttler!
Please be so kind as to forward my thanks for his time and consideration regarding this topic!
Also please acknowledge to Tony, that I am a huge fan of his work, which has equated to some great and informative books!

Regards
M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 02:47:26 AM »
Hi folks,

Random thought for a subtle whiff:  What if Australia also provided some CAC Sabres to Singapore at the same time as they did so for Malaysia?

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 06:06:50 AM »
Set up F-86 rebuild line for anyone willing to pay for updates.  Center piece of rebuilds is as was done with Skyhawk includes F-404 with option to include afterburner.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:46:44 AM by finsrin »

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 06:24:41 PM »
The IDFAF ordered Canadair Sabre 6's. One got painted up but the order was stopped.

Similarly the Rhodesians tried to get South American F-86K's but they got blocked.

I did build a RRAF F-86E, ex RAF Sabre 4, and an IDF 6 a long time ago.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 10:28:08 PM »
One of my project (which I really should get and finish  :-\ ) is to build a prop driven F-86, an F-86D to be exact.  The idea came about after reading about the Rolls Royce Crecy two-stroke engine, one of the theoretical combustion engineers there had reworked the design into a 16 cylinder 'X' configuration of about 7 litres and putting out 2500 hp.  The engine would have had a Griffon two-stage supercharger attached to the front (which had about the same diameter as the engine block) and the exhaust
was channeled back into an exhaust turbine. The contraption looked very much like a jet turbine engine in appearance.  The chapter then went on to explain by juggling the numbers the engineer had come up with and making everything larger, they could have got a 24 cylinder 'X' configuration which kicked out about 8000 hp (in theory that is).

My idea was to go with this engine so I started looking around for an airframe that could handle 8000 hp.  The book on the Crecy (and Mustang) from Rolls Royce, explains that a pound of thrust is about 1 hp, so that narrowed the search to what airframe to look for.  Now the F-86D just happens to fall in this catagory, plus it has a nose that looks like a spinner and it didn't take much to come up with a design. The engine would be where the real engine would be and using a Rolls Royce designed drive-shaft (designed for their mid-engined FTB project), powering a prop on the front wouldn't be a problem I think.  Prop ground clearance would easily be accommodated by using the FJ-4 Fury u/c (there's at least 12" of clearance when I measure it with my scale rule).  I used a Wyvern prop and after cutting off the radome nose, I only had to sand the fuselage back about 1mm before the spinner and fuselage diameters matched.

Anyway, some pics of it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:32:47 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 03:24:47 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 04:49:46 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?


Maybe as a different approach to the RF-86?

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 07:38:46 AM »
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?

F-86D with a Mirage IIIR recon nose. I don't know whether they are to scale, though.


"Snoopin' Sabre" is just a working title. I suppose since it derives from the Dog Sabre and is a version dedicated to looking for stuff, Bloodhound Sabre would also work.  ;)
If you take an F-86K, you can even have your recon bird armed with cannons.
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 08:17:04 AM »
The "Ant-eater" ;D
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 09:03:54 AM »
The "Ant-eater" ;D

Needs ZOTT on the tail  8)

*see avatar*
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2012, 10:23:17 AM »
^^  ;D Yeah!

Less nosey! This time the nose is the side view of an Etendard IV P.



When I was done with this one, it reminded me A LOT of a G.91 "Gina".
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 10:28:09 AM »
Now its looking like a warthog (the animal).  Needs some tusks on the side and some eyes in the anti-glare panel  ;D
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 10:33:08 AM »
I guess whif aerobatic teams would prefer the Sabre for its beautiful shape ......

one of the real Argentinian AF team a/c ......

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 02:41:17 PM »
I was actually thinking along the lines of a G.91Y camera nose for it.

The G.91 looked enough like the Dog Sabre as it was. Can you imagine how much more jarring to the eye it would be if it was all F-86D save the G.91Y style nose? >:D
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2012, 07:53:55 PM »
In real life the Yugoslavian AF operated old F-86D's with camera packs in place of the rocket launcher pack. I presume the radars were swapped out for balast.

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2012, 11:28:28 PM »
Were there, in real world, any F-86 in SEA camo scheme?
I know ROKAF. Were there any other air force?

Offline tsrjoe

  • Has been volunteered... for something...
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2012, 12:29:03 AM »
i think there were some USAF. ones painted in SEA. scheme toward the end of their useful life possibly with ANG. units, there were also a few drone conversion Sabre H variants in the scheme too

cheers, Joe

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2012, 01:21:48 AM »
Can anyone link a pic? :D

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2012, 01:23:50 AM »

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2012, 01:40:32 AM »



That's very reminiscent of the Nanchang Q-5 offshoot of the MiG-19.
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2012, 01:56:44 AM »
The only American service Sabres I've ever seen pictures of in SEA camo were ANG H models

Here's a NY ANG F-86H:

net photo

Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2012, 03:50:28 AM »
The IDFAF ordered Canadair Sabre 6's. One got painted up but the order was stopped.

Similarly the Rhodesians tried to get South American F-86K's but they got blocked.

I did build a RRAF F-86E, ex RAF Sabre 4, and an IDF 6 a long time ago.

Found the pic.

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2012, 04:50:08 AM »
Just to annoy the Sabre Elite, I'd love to get the recently reissued RMX F-86F and rescribe it with most panel lines in completely the wrong locations and then do some correct paint scheme.  Complete with a ''research paper'' showing the kit has exactly the correct sweep to its main wing.
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 05:24:11 AM »
Just to annoy the Sabre Elite, I'd love to get the recently reissued RMX F-86F and rescribe it with most panel lines in completely the wrong locations and then do some correct paint scheme.  Complete with a ''research paper'' showing the kit has exactly the correct sweep to its main wing.
 

Better yet, use RLM colors and pattern for a desert Me-109 just to add some additional spin and consternation :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2012, 05:26:35 AM »
Or Coastal Command...........
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2012, 05:39:48 AM »
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2012, 08:56:51 PM »
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2012, 11:36:44 AM »
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?
Weren't some of them done in camo, late in life, as F-1Es?

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2012, 11:57:31 AM »
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.

Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2012, 01:41:44 PM »
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.

Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)
Or do a F-86D or -86K in WW II night fighter scheme.

Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2012, 07:03:50 PM »
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?
Weren't some of them done in camo, late in life, as F-1Es?

I was thinking of a NMF scheme, perhaps in a Fighter-Bomber Squadron as a supplement to the F-84F since they are both J65 engined. I don't believe the F-86G designator was used....

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2012, 03:07:27 AM »
Since the Monogram F-86F is too thick through the cheeks and jowls, and has a wing that is too swept, one should be built up as a "F-86x" test bed or in some foreign customer's markings. 
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2012, 03:18:41 AM »
Since the Monogram F-86F is too thick through the cheeks and jowls, and has a wing that is too swept, one should be built up as a "F-86x" test bed or in some foreign customer's markings.


I had no idea that there were faults such as this with the Monogram F-86 kit.  Though some of the details are a bit on the thick side I had never really noticed the faults you describe.  Not that this would deter me from adding another kit to the stash as it does have the one attribute that appeals to me in being affordable in most cases when compared to the more expensive offerings from Academy and Hasegawa. 

Has there been any criticism of the Esci F-86 kits?  I found them to be rather plain and primitive.  Of course the instrument panel decals may have swayed my judgement a little. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2012, 03:20:38 AM »
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437


I don't think that was a night fighter scheme Jeff, at the beginning of the war, all the RAF day fighters had the half white/half black undersides, it was painted on for recognition purposes

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2012, 03:30:47 AM »
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.
Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)


Or Coastal Command...........
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437
I don't think that was a night fighter scheme Jeff, at the beginning of the war, all the RAF fighters had the half white/half black undersides, it was painted on for recognition purposes


Blame it on enthusiasm and ignorance.  Never too old to lean something new.  I never gave much thought to it before and never bothered to do much research on the BP Defiant as it was never one of those aircraft that truly interested me save for the uniqueness of how it was armed and the doctrine behind the turreted fighter being pursued as a means of combatting other aircraft.  What the hell were they thinking?  I remember the black wing/white wing and kept thinking night fighter while trying to find an example so that carried forward in my attempt to convey the idea.  Actually as a daytime recognition aide it would certainly be effective and that scheme applied to a Sabre would certainly be a worthy tribute to the Defiant.  I seem to recall that the Hurricane was also sporting that scheme but could not find a suitable example to incorpate into my input so was stuck with just the Defiant as an example. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2012, 03:34:44 AM »
It was actually a lot like why the D-Day Invasion stripes were added, for quick identification by friendly forces.

Come to think of it, there were some F-86's painted with black and white stripes that flew in Korea, the flying F-86A that the Imperial War Museum flies at Duxford has them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/victius/5145643865/#
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 03:39:05 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2012, 05:30:54 AM »
It's all supposed info.  But when a guy is considered to be the final authority on the type and also has an interest in the hobby, I'll defer to his opinion.   And a ready-made whiff just means less benchwork for me.  :)

It shouldn't be too hard to put a 4' stretch right throug the middle of it either.  For what reason???  Who knows.  ;D ;D ;D
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline TerryCampion

  • Be careful asking for his photos…he might send them to you!
  • Radish by a new moniker
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2012, 05:00:42 AM »
A Rhodesian F-86F in low-viz colours, made from the 1/72nd HobbyBoss kit.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2012, 03:14:04 PM »
 :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2012, 04:13:16 PM »
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437


How about a version of the N Korean night fighter scheme with red USAF toned down markings ?

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 02:50:55 AM »
Can anyone recommend a good 1/48 kit of the F-86 ?

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2012, 03:23:44 AM »
Which version?

Academy and Hasegawa both do nice kits of E/F types and the Revell F-86D is a nice kit, even though they
got the wing-sweep wrong. It has recently be issued by Must-Have with an F-86K fuselage.

The only kit of an F-86A is the very old Lindbergh.

"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2012, 03:27:46 AM »
An E or F will do, something I can put RCAF markings on.

Offline TerryCampion

  • Be careful asking for his photos…he might send them to you!
  • Radish by a new moniker
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2012, 06:43:10 PM »
Here's an ESCI 1/48th kit, now re-released by Italeri....well, a few years ago anyway.
It's in Imperial Roman Air Force colours, as used by the Pretorian Guard and carrying Asp missiles...
The Rapier......

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2012, 09:09:52 PM »
Jeff has come to the rescue with an 'F', thanks buddy --
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 09:14:09 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2013, 07:39:15 AM »
While somewhat simple, why not?

Monogram F-86F with late model Sidewinders, chaff/flare dispensers. Perhaps some sort of ECM bumps here and there.    Engrave the kit and put it into some modern air force somewhere. 
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2013, 08:46:58 AM »
^ A Sabre would look fantastic in Mod Eagle colours with toned-down markings.  :-*
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2013, 10:16:31 AM »
While somewhat simple, why not?

Monogram F-86F with late model Sidewinders, chaff/flare dispensers. Perhaps some sort of ECM bumps here and there.    Engrave the kit and put it into some modern air force somewhere.


Add in a modern one-piece windscreen and a matching canopy and you will have a nice little fighter/attack aircrarft :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2013, 12:53:25 PM »
Well places like Bolivia had the P-51 into the 1970s so why not have F-86s operating somewhere similar until the 21st century.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
Perhaps also re-engined with a somewhat more modern engine?  Depending on availability and available cash, I could see an engine as old as a J52 being fitted or as new as a F404/RM12/F414.

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2013, 01:51:35 PM »
Perhaps also re-engined with a somewhat more modern engine?  Depending on availability and available cash, I could see an engine as old as a J52 being fitted or as new as a F404/RM12/F414.

> Am with you on re-engine.  With right pieces, would be a nice build to do in 1/32 with open servicing doors and new engine depicted inside.  Also have other update features evident on model.

> Was at store Thursday and got to talking with former Skyhawk mech.  He says his neighbor has a 1/1 F-86 in shipping crates.  Is looking for a place to assemble it  :o

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2013, 02:08:47 PM »
Too bad he's not down here.  With AAR pulling out of their facility at Alliance Airport, there's a huge building available for that kind of thing and a runway that'll handle the largest aircraft (747-8 came through on tests and I've seen an AN-124 making deliveries or picking some large, buiky items up).

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2013, 03:02:15 PM »
Talking-Thinking F-86.
Wonder how doable it is to build a 3/4 F-86 akin to pictures I seen of 3/4 P-51.
J-85 or a biz-jet engine for power.  Deleting guns and ammo buys back some down scaling space.  No armor plate room/weight to deal with.
Could be quite the hot rod - yes ?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:38:11 PM by finsrin »

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 09:15:30 AM »
either a J85 or a TFE731 would make a good choice for a scaled-down F-86 and the TFE731 is still in production.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2013, 09:50:48 AM »
Maybe a twin engined F-86 ala the G.91Y:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2013, 02:01:11 PM »
A RA14 powered, big winged, radar equiped, Sky Flash and Aden armed CAC evolved Sabre.  I have always liked the Fury and am tempted to do an enhanced Sabre based on the FJ4 airframe, perhaps with a streamlined podded radar protruding from a wing leading edge.

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2013, 02:25:22 AM »
Another aircraft I'd like to put into service with Khemed is the FJ-4 in a principally ground attack role.
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2013, 08:43:20 AM »
A RA14 powered, big winged, radar equiped, Sky Flash and Aden armed CAC evolved Sabre.  I have always liked the Fury and am tempted to do an enhanced Sabre based on the FJ4 airframe, perhaps with a streamlined podded radar protruding from a wing leading edge.
Why pod the radar?  Just go with a F-86K nose with a deepened inlet to handle the larger airflow requirement.  That's pretty much what NAA-Columbus was proposing in their FJ-4N proposal to the RCN in competition with the Banshee.

Offline ed s

  • An outstanding, creative builder.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2013, 08:57:01 AM »
Talking-Thinking F-86.
Wonder how doable it is to build a 3/4 F-86 akin to pictures I seen of 3/4 P-51.
J-85 or a biz-jet engine for power.  Deleting guns and ammo buys back some down scaling space.  No armor plate room/weight to deal with.
Could be quite the hot rod - yes ?

Wasn't the fiat G91 basically a scaled down F-86. As was the Fuji T-1 trainer.

Ed

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2013, 07:07:50 AM »
Maybe a twin engined F-86 ala the G.91Y:

Similar to the G.91Y was Canadair's unbuilt 1958 CL-76 project employing CL-13 Sabre components and powered by twin Pratt & Whitney JT12s.
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2013, 06:07:14 PM »
G'day blocks!!

I've just stumbled across this -


It's a RAAF CAC CA-27 Sabre (A94-922), modified as test carrier aircraft for two de Havilland Firestreak (‘Blue Jay’) infra-red homing air-to-air missiles, at Woomera rocket range. Note it’s fuselage belly tank!
It's one missile I never thought of with the Sabre, due to its size and weight! might make an interesting 'What If' RAF weapons load on a profile. As to would the belly tank, to give it extra legs to intercept Soviet Tu-4 Bull's coming in from the Northern Sea ;)

M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2013, 02:04:04 AM »
Nice find - any further info?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2013, 05:05:18 AM »
Nice find - any further info?

Theres a writeup and photos in Stewert Wilsons Meteor, Sabre and Mirage in RAAF service book. The belly tank was for avionics.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2013, 05:58:42 AM »
G'day blocks!!

I've just stumbled across this -


It's a RAAF CAC CA-27 Sabre (A94-922), modified as test carrier aircraft for two de Havilland Firestreak (‘Blue Jay’) infra-red homing air-to-air missiles, at Woomera rocket range. Note it’s fuselage belly tank!
It's one missile I never thought of with the Sabre, due to its size and weight! might make an interesting 'What If' RAF weapons load on a profile. As to would the belly tank, to give it extra legs to intercept Soviet Tu-4 Bull's coming in from the Northern Sea ;)
It would be an interesting aircraft to add a F-86K-style nose to; you could probably eliminate the belly tank full of avionics.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2013, 04:06:42 AM »
What if in 1955, instead of getting sixteen de Havilland Venoms, the RNZAF got some F-86s?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2013, 12:13:03 PM »
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2013, 12:33:33 PM »
I'd say there are enough differences between them that you couldn't do so convincing (the number of cannon carried being one difference).  I'll try and compare an Avon-Saber conversion with a F-86H kit and get back to you.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2013, 09:54:34 PM »
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?

Quite different.  H has IIRC a deeper intake and a slightly shorter fuselage.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2013, 12:59:23 AM »
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?

Quite different.  H has IIRC a deeper intake and a slightly shorter fuselage.

As I understand it, the Avon-Sabre had a bigger intake too and a revised fuselage. The Avon-Sabre's was made by putting a wedge section into the fuselage forwards of the wing, while the F-86H had a horizontal split and deepening "over the whole fuselage", though it must have been more complicated than that other wise the jet-pipe orifice would have ended up oval!

The Avon-Sabre's centre fuselage had to be extended backwards and the rae fuselage shortened in order to hold the lighter Avon in the right place for CofG reasons, but I thought the overall length was about the same as the standard Sabre, while the F-86H was about a foot longer.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2013, 01:02:09 AM »
I'd say there are enough differences between them that you couldn't do so convincing (the number of cannon carried being one difference).  I'll try and compare an Avon-Saber conversion with a F-86H kit and get back to you.

Cannons tubes can be filled and re-cut and wings can be swapped. What I can't seem to get a handle on is the fuselage proportions: I can find text accounts of what was done to both of them, but I can't get a good handle on what the visual consequesnces are in 1/72nd scale.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2013, 01:05:36 AM »
Another thought: the FJ-3 Fury was a Sabre with a J-65 and a bigger intake. Since the J-65 was just a licence-built Sapphire and since the Avon and the Sapphire were generally rated as installationally interchangeable, that makes me wonder if the FJ-3 fuselage is basically the same shape as an Avon Sabre?

Again, I know the nose gear was longer, but that could be swapped.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2013, 10:41:04 AM »
Another thought: the FJ-3 Fury was a Sabre with a J-65 and a bigger intake. Since the J-65 was just a licence-built Sapphire and since the Avon and the Sapphire were generally rated as installationally interchangeable, that makes me wonder if the FJ-3 fuselage is basically the same shape as an Avon Sabre?

Again, I know the nose gear was longer, but that could be swapped.

Basically, they probably are, but that begs the question as to whether there are any good FJ-3 kits out there; I don't believe there are.  I'll do a cross-check of the Avon-Sabre and F-86H in 1/72 tomorrow and report the results.  Today involved a lot of errand running.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2013, 05:36:15 PM »
Look what I found in a box I haven't opened in a decade

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2013, 07:26:58 PM »
Found this comparing the FJ-2/3 to the F-86:

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/fj23-fury-redux.html
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2013, 02:31:15 AM »
You can get numerous 1/72 kits and conversions for the CAC Avon Sabre from High Planes - see here.

There are also some on ebay.

For the more distinguished amongst us, there is also a 1/48 Red Roo conversion - see here + High Planes also do kits.

Regards,

Greg
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 04:31:54 PM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2013, 06:45:58 AM »
I really don't like the way Academy 1/48 kit has its gun troughs.  ::)  Yes, it's a really pathetic peeve of mine but that's just me.   :-\

So the thought of puttying them into oblivion has passed through the Mental Idea Generation Banks and using the inboard pylons for smaller gun pods.   I'm trying to come up with either some sand based color scheme or something similar to the green/green Equadorian Kfirs.   Portugal supports the US in Morocco perhaps.   

Edit:  The same gun pod arrangement could be used on the Sabre Dog perhaps as well.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:53:36 AM by Daryl J. »
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2013, 11:36:36 AM »
Okay, I put the Tasman Avon-Sabre conversion fuselage up against the special Hobby F-86H fuselage.  The F-86H fuselage looks to be deeper and shorter than that of the Avon-Sabre.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2013, 07:11:55 PM »
Okay, I put the Tasman Avon-Sabre conversion fuselage up against the special Hobby F-86H fuselage.  The F-86H fuselage looks to be deeper and shorter than that of the Avon-Sabre.

Great stuff - cheers!  :)

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2013, 12:52:17 PM »
Odd thought - a F-86D or F-86K nose, with deepened intake mated to a F-86H for an advanced all-weather interceptor while the more definitely ones finished development.

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
  • Althistorian & profiler...& the 1st lady of whiff
    • The True North, Strong and Free (AltCan)
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2013, 01:01:04 PM »
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?
"God save our Queen and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

Alternate Canada - http://altcan.webs.com

"Bernard, this doesn't say anything!" "Why thank you, Prime Minister."

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2013, 03:52:58 PM »
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.

I concur.  It's a bit primitive like all limited-run injection moulded kits but if you add the wings and tailplanes from a good F-86 kit it comes up quite nicely as a recognisable CA 27 Avon Sabre.

There is also an Airmodels CA 27 vacuform conversion model available.  It consists only of the forward fuselage and needs a bit more work (in a different way) compared to the High Planes one.   I have one in my stash and its a quite well moulded.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2013, 11:24:19 AM »
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.

I concur.  It's a bit primitive like all limited-run injection moulded kits but if you add the wings and tailplanes from a good F-86 kit it comes up quite nicely as a recognisable CA 27 Avon Sabre.

There is also an Airmodels CA 27 vacuform conversion model available.  It consists only of the forward fuselage and needs a bit more work (in a different way) compared to the High Planes one.   I have one in my stash and its a quite well moulded.

You can still find the conversions that Tasman did on eBay.  That's where I got all mine.

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2013, 05:31:21 PM »
I'm bringing this back up as I've just started the Airfix 1/72 Canadair Sabre kit and I'd like to explore ejection seat options.

I know some sabres were refitted with more modern seats in their service, but I'm not sure which types.

I'm thinking of either a Martin Baker Mk.2F, Mk.2FV or Mk.4A; all of which I can get easily in resin.

I haven't had time to do a real in depth search for the info, but would anyone know off the top of their heads if any of those three seats were ever fitted to Sabres of if not would at least have been feasible for use in the aircraft?

Thanks in advance.
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2013, 12:31:36 AM »
I'm bringing this back up as I've just started the Airfix 1/72 Canadair Sabre kit and I'd like to explore ejection seat options.

I know some sabres were refitted with more modern seats in their service, but I'm not sure which types.

I'm thinking of either a Martin Baker Mk.2F, Mk.2FV or Mk.4A; all of which I can get easily in resin.

I haven't had time to do a real in depth search for the info, but would anyone know off the top of their heads if any of those three seats were ever fitted to Sabres of if not would at least have been feasible for use in the aircraft?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin,

is this for a real world subject or a fictional effort?  If fictional I would consider the seat types used in the Hawker Hunter as a guide and see if that seat will fit your Sabre.  Other candidates from that period would bet he Provost, Wyvern, etc. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2013, 01:21:52 AM »
All the RAF Sabres were made by Canadair ( Mk.4's) and it doesn't look like they ever were fitted with an MB seat.

but this might help, found on The Aviation Forum, you could use anything from the Meteor, Vampire, Venom, Sea Hawk --- :

1 Meteor
1CA Canberra
1E Meteor
1F Venom
2A Attacker
2B Wyvern
2CA Canberra
2CB Canberra B(l)8
2D Sea Hawk
2E Meteor
2F Venom
2H Hunter
2HAN Hunter
3A Valiant
3B Vampire T11
3CA Canberra
3CS Canberra PR9 Pilot
3CT1 & 2 Canberra T4
3CT3 Canberra T4
3H
3J Javelin
3K Vulcan
3L Victor
4A Sea Venom
4BSB & 4BSC Lightning
4DSA Sea Vixen
4HA Hunter T7
4MSA Buccaneer S2
4P Jet Provost
4QS Canberra PR9 Nav
5A Phantom
6MSA Buccaneer S2
6MSB Buccaneer S2
7A Phantom
9 &9A
9B Jaguar
9D Harner7a
10A Tornado
10H Sea Harrier
11
12 Harrier GR7

« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 01:25:41 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2013, 02:48:40 AM »
M-B Mk.5 in Norwegian F-86F and some Bundesluft Sabre Mk.6.
The canopy slide mechanism had to be modified to allow it to
slide further aft to clear the M-B seat, it also raised up slightly
when slid aft in comparison to regular Sabres.
Evidently not popular with all German pilots as it was not as
comfortable as the C-2 and blocked vision to the rear, thus the
extra rear-view mirrors found in some German Sabres.

Info from The Canadair Sabre by Larry Milberry.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2013, 04:47:49 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

The model is going to be fictitious as part of my Divided Austria storyline.

The premise is that the West Austrian Sabres got new ejection seats as part of an upgrade and service extension program.
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2013, 05:45:52 AM »
Andrea De Vincentiis is ADV Models and he has just shared images of a completed model of his 1:48th scale Fiat G.91Y Yankee resin and multi-media model kit at HyperScale. 

"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2013, 04:50:59 PM »
I can attest the the beauty of this kit.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2013, 11:36:33 AM »
Advanced F-86 (see first post in this thread)



... and a variation


Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2013, 11:41:48 AM »
The alternate design for F-93.
86 + 100 = 186
186/2 = 93

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2013, 12:46:09 PM »
 :) ;)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2013, 02:27:57 AM »
That does look good.  :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2013, 03:37:18 AM »
Evolve it one more step, much like the one that served as a testbed for the F-100 configuration, raise the airbrakes and lower the horizontal tail for an intermediate step between this and the full-out Super Sabre.

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2013, 04:16:08 PM »
Since the U.S. Army considered the Fiat G.91, why not also the FJ-4 Fury?
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline aerospacer

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2013, 11:36:06 PM »
How about an 'almost real' soviet Sabre http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18140.0.html?

Martin
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2014, 02:20:52 PM »
Something different:



Quote
A rare picture of a CL-13 (a license built F-86 made by Canadair) Sabre being evaluated by the Israeli Air Force in the 1950's. The Israeli Air Force seen the great performance of the F-86, that they were planning to buy 24 of them. However, political issues and Arab opposition killed the purchase and decided to get the French made fighters like the Dassault Mystere instead.

[Source]

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2014, 12:28:20 AM »

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2014, 08:59:47 AM »
LOTS of bad stories around about unicraft.   :(

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2014, 09:08:16 AM »
Oh?  I hadn't heard of them at all before to be honest, good or bad, do tell.

I had never heard of the AF-1F either and am fascinated, a TF-30 powered A-7 competitor.  Makes a Spey powered, ADEN armed CAC version come to mind.

Offline Frank3k

  • Excession
  • Formerly Frank2056. New upgrade!
    • My webpage
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2014, 09:21:41 AM »
Unicraft is a one-man model company from Ukraine. He has great model designs and the masters are usually top notch, but the resin products are typically very "rustic". Parts usually have huge gaps or other issues (poor resin, surface defects, etc.). They're buildable, but they require a lot of effort and patience as well as a well stocked parts bin. I think Tophe has done a great job with a few Unicraft kits.

Igor used to make plastic models - he would heat a sheet of plastic and push it into a mold... by hand. You would occasionally see a part with a fingerprint embedded in the plastic. All the parts had one side covered by a scorched, carbonized material (paper?)


Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2014, 09:55:40 AM »
Ok thanks for that.

Does anyone have any info on the AF-1F, I have been looking since I found the wiki reference last night and the only image I have found is the Unicraft kit.  I wouldn't mind finding out more about it and the super Skyhawk too for that matter.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2014, 09:58:19 AM »
Ok thanks for that.

Does anyone have any info on the AF-1F, I have been looking since I found the wiki reference last night and the only image I have found is the Unicraft kit.  I wouldn't mind finding out more about it and the super Skyhawk too for that matter.
The American Secret Projects book on bombers, attack aircraft, and anti-submarine aircraft covers these and other entrants against the Vought design that became the A-7.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2014, 10:03:45 AM »
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2014, 11:39:38 AM »
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).
A word of warning, that book is OOP and you have to watch the prices on the used ones to grab a reasonably priced one when it shows up.  I finally got lucky and got mine for about what it ran new, usually they are listed for 3x or 4x that.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2014, 12:18:12 PM »
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).
A word of warning, that book is OOP and you have to watch the prices on the used ones to grab a reasonably priced one when it shows up.  I finally got lucky and got mine for about what it ran new, usually they are listed for 3x or 4x that.

Yes saw that $230 used $400 new, ouch, it can wait I think.  I did however splurge on Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers, British Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates as well and Browns Nelson to Vanguard and Rebuilding the Royal Navy.  Once the payment is noticed you may not hear from me again.........

Offline arkon

  • Paper Building Maestro
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2014, 01:42:09 PM »

Yes saw that $230 used $400 new, ouch, it can wait I think.  I did however splurge on Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers, British Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates as well and Browns Nelson to Vanguard and Rebuilding the Royal Navy.  Once the payment is noticed you may not hear from me again.........

drop her off at shoe store while you pick up "home improvement" items
the paper gods demand sacrifice

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2014, 03:53:20 PM »
Glad that I got my copy when the book first was released.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2014, 03:56:33 PM »
Some details of the NA-295 here
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2014, 08:15:40 PM »
Thanks for that, the pics don't show up anymore though.  Interesting concept has got me imagining RAAF and RAN versions built by CAC as a response to Indonesia's USSR supplied kit.  Initial response would be an Australianised FJ-4 and FJ-4B followed by the AF-1F which in turn would eventually be replaced with land and carrier based derivatives of the Mirage F1  ;D.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2014, 10:12:16 PM »
Thanks for that, the pics don't show up anymore though. 

You have to sign in to see any pics on that forum --

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2014, 08:23:36 AM »
Thanks for that, I suppose I had better join then  :)
Thought about it but never gotten around to it before, I notice a few of you are on there so why not.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2014, 02:11:38 AM »
How small a carrier could the FJ-4 be operated from?  Could it for instance have been launched and recovered by a modernised Majestiic class CVL, or was an Essex pretty much the smallest platform it could fly from.

My thinking is instead of waiting until the mid 60s to order the Skyhawk the RAN FAA opted for a CAC manufactured, Avon powered, ADEN armed FJ-4 in the early 60s to counter Indonesia's MIG 17/19/21 and supplement then replace the Sea Venom.  Could this aircraft have been successfully operated from Melbourne and a reconstructed Sydney, or would it have need a larger platfrom?

Any takers?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 08:21:46 PM by Volkodav »

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2014, 01:15:22 AM »
FJ-4, not likely, FJ-4B with the additional air brakes that were added to lower approach speed, maybe.
It's possible that with the right mods to the landing gear and the arresting gear on the ship that a
4B could be slammed onto a Majestic on a regular basis.
 ;D
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2014, 08:53:30 PM »
FJ-4, not likely, FJ-4B with the additional air brakes that were added to lower approach speed, maybe.
It's possible that with the right mods to the landing gear and the arresting gear on the ship that a
4B could be slammed onto a Majestic on a regular basis.
 ;D

Outstanding, roo roundels and CAC Avon / ADEN FJ-4B Fury here I come!

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2014, 02:19:15 AM »
Some inspiration for you:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2014, 04:43:34 AM »
Tah, the EDSG over Sky scheme I think.  Just need some decals to suit in 1/48

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2014, 04:37:10 AM »
Random Idea:  Recon derivative of CAC Sabre as RAAF Tactical Recon aircraft.  Basically cross a CAC Sabre with a RF-86:



I would remove all the guns.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2014, 12:07:16 AM »
Use a ventral canoe like the Skyflash trails Sabres had but fitted out with recon gear instead of telemetry stuff.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2014, 12:54:45 AM »
The F-86 is my all time favorite jet - bar none.  Highlight of my trip back to the UK in 2002 was seeing one flying at Duxford

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2014, 07:46:35 AM »
Random Idea:  Recon derivative of CAC Sabre as RAAF Tactical Recon aircraft.  Basically cross a CAC Sabre with a RF-86:



I would remove all the guns.


It looks as if the guns have been removed. The gun ports in the pic look decidedly painted-on. Quite interesting. A little digging has revealed that both the Fujimi 1/72 and the Hasegawa 1/48 kits have you fill-in the gun ports and use a "make-believe gun port" decal instead.

Use a ventral canoe like the Skyflash trails Sabres had but fitted out with recon gear instead of telemetry stuff.


Interesting. Any pics of that? Reading about Skyflashs on Sabres.... how about some early Sparrows for the F-86D?  >:D
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:32:40 PM by ChernayaAkula »
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2014, 08:40:02 AM »
I think FireStreak missile trial is the one being thought of:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2014, 11:54:00 AM »
I think FireStreak missile trial is the one being thought of:




Yep that one, I blame the drugs!

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2014, 12:01:41 PM »
Firestreak installation with a modified (deeper intake) F-86K nose on an Avon-powered Sabre?  A recce variant of that same nose, much like a larger version of the G.91R nose?

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2014, 08:57:23 PM »
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:00:23 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2014, 11:28:30 PM »
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?

That was the plan if the missile was adopted, build an Australian Sabre Dog.  As it was a minimal upgrade with AIM-9B went ahead instead.

Would have loved to have seen CAC base later Sabres on the Fury airframe and build them as fighter bombers for the RAAF and RAN FAA.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2014, 01:27:13 AM »
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?
You'd need to deepen the D/K intake to match the requirements of the Avon, but it would be doable.  I understand NAA-Columbus looked at something like that, with a J65/Sapphire, in response to the Canadian requirement that saw them buy Banshess.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 07:12:08 AM by elmayerle »

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #134 on: September 10, 2014, 05:26:24 AM »
Well there's a project just waiting to be done I think, if I grafted the lower forward fuselage/nose off an FJ-4 to the bottom of a D or K, we could cover the bigger air intake this way don't ya think ---  plus it would cover the nose wheel bay quite nicely and it will definitely have Canadian markings.

And I've also got a bunch of Red Deans in the stash too   ---  ;)

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2014, 07:14:10 AM »
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2014, 08:39:05 AM »
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.


In otherwords, a Sea Dingo? ;)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 06:07:01 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2014, 10:23:25 AM »
Why ever not?

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2014, 10:44:45 PM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2014, 01:55:12 AM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2014, 03:40:00 AM »
XP-86 straight wing I think would have been a really nice aircraft to fly, found quite a few other aircraft which seem to have been influenced by it ---

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2014, 08:09:16 PM »
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).

I am thinking in terms of a CAC follow on from, or be built instead of, the CA32 Avon Sabre, something that could have realistically been developed locally but still offered a worthwhile increase in performance and above all would be easy to model  ;)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2014, 02:22:32 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 04:43:02 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2014, 07:26:20 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle,

You can get just the fuselage from High Planes (got one right on my workbench at the moment), everything else comes from a Hobbycraft or Fujimi kit.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2014, 09:33:38 AM »
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of £20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.

Now on the other hand, I've already got an Emhar FJ-4 which was cheap becuase the box is tatty, and a couple of other projects that will leave me with spare F-86D wings anyway.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2014, 11:22:27 AM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2014, 11:56:05 PM »
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.

True, but then the only FJ-3 kit I know of in 1/72nd is the Falcon vacform conversion.

Here's a thought: if it's going to be a Supermarine Sapphire Sabre, how about putting a Swift wing on it?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:55:42 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2014, 03:20:17 AM »
Cross posting some inspiration:



From Sabre Dingo
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2014, 09:21:57 PM »
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of £20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.


Airmodel in Germany do an Avon Sabre vacuform conversion for considerably cheaper than the High Planes one.  However, the High Planes model or conversion (they do a complete kit as well as just a fuselage), if purchased direct from Singapore I'm sure works out much cheaper than 20 quid, it is also injection moulded.

Also, the 30mm cannon nose is considerably different to a standard Sabre nose, while the fuselage should be slightly deeper.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 09:23:28 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #149 on: November 23, 2014, 09:43:53 AM »
Cross posting some inspiration:



From Sabre Dingo


Just realised what's been bugging me about this profile. In the Sabre, the intake duct goes under the cockpit floor and then up to the centreline to meet the engine, so the back-seater in the TF-86 actually sat higher than the pilot, not lower. The side profile of the TF-86 on Airmodel's site that Rickshaw linked confirms this. Can't link it from their site but here's another profile that shows what I'm talking about:

« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 09:47:35 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #150 on: November 23, 2014, 10:12:19 AM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2014, 10:25:20 AM »

Airmodel in Germany do an Avon Sabre vacuform conversion for considerably cheaper than the High Planes one.  However, the High Planes model or conversion (they do a complete kit as well as just a fuselage), if purchased direct from Singapore I'm sure works out much cheaper than 20 quid, it is also injection moulded.



Cheers for the info about Airmodel: some interesting stuff there.

The Avon Sabre full kit is listed at £19.66 on HPM Hobbies website, or £8.85 for just the conversion. The latter is the only one actually in stock at the moment, and there's another £4.97 for shipment to the UK. The cheapest of the recommended donor kits I can find on a quick search is £13.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #152 on: November 23, 2014, 10:32:42 AM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2014, 11:56:45 AM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.


Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want


That is my intention.  One of my earilest Whiffs was a Sabre Sea Dingo but I used a combination of the High Planes fuselage, the Airfix F-86D and the Fuji T-1 cockpit.  I've never been happy with it and have long intended redoing it.   After I'd built it I purchased the airmodel vacuform and it's sat waiting for me to get around to it.

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2014, 12:00:53 PM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2014, 12:12:04 PM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want
If I was going to do an Avon- or Sapphire- powered radar-equipped variant, I'd likely get two because you'll need to deepen the inlet to accommodate the higher mass flow either of those engines require (not that the FJ-3 has a rather deeper intake than the equivalent F-86 and that was carried over to the FJ-4 - if memory serves me correctly, the first XFJ-2's were navalized F-86Es but the production ones had a J65 and a deeper intake and this was enlarged somewhat further on the FJ-3).  Given that the Orenda gives more "poke" without needing a larger intake, I could see an navalized F-86K with an Orenda installed flying off HMCS Bonaventure; I've heard that a cross between that and a FJ-4 was proposed by NAA-Columbus in the competition that led to F2H Banshees flying in that role.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2014, 12:41:13 PM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:

I've long gone to the dark side...mind you, I am still more of an engineer than some I have worked with.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2014, 12:49:43 PM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:

I've long gone to the dark side...mind you, I am still more of an engineer than some I have worked with.
Yes Dear, I know that.

Oops, sorry I was channelling Brook there.  ;)  ;D
 :icon_fsm:

"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2014, 01:00:11 PM »
How about refitting F-86 with a F414.  Build one dry and one wet.
Turn em loose at an airshow !

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2014, 02:04:58 PM »
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #160 on: November 23, 2014, 08:59:00 PM »
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.

How about having it based on an F-86D airframe with two of those closed-breech rocket guns they tested on the F-89 fitted in the faired-over former intake?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Silver Fox

  • Talk to me Goose!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #161 on: November 23, 2014, 11:21:05 PM »
Make it an inexpensive Close Air Support type with a radome mounted over a electro-optical turret. With the intake trunk available as space, build in a 30mm chain gun as internal armament. Pylons normally carry Hellfire/Brimstone or rocket pods.

Of course, in my universe this is the Canadair/Bombardier Sabre Mk 7. :)

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #162 on: November 23, 2014, 11:38:50 PM »
All kinds of missions come to mind. All the space formerly taken up by the internal engine would be available for fuel, etc. As a fast FAC it could be on station for a long time. It would have to carry lots of rocket pods for target marking.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #163 on: November 23, 2014, 11:45:29 PM »
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.


Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want


And I've got this conversion set

http://www.modelcraftsandhobbies.co.nz/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=4603&category_id=46bf5e49e86e462f13c403ffd5bcdee2&

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #164 on: November 24, 2014, 01:44:40 AM »
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.
Putting on my engineer's hat, I can say that I've seen the report on NAA's study of doing just that and it would require major airframe rebuild since the intake area is essentially stressed only for the aerodynamic loads of the air flowing through to the engine and the surrounding structure matches.  Sealing that space off and filling it with fuel, avionics, or whatever would require major rebuilding and a new airframe would be cheaper.  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #165 on: November 24, 2014, 02:19:00 AM »
  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.

YF-93 in other words --

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #166 on: November 24, 2014, 02:39:12 AM »
  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.

YF-93 in other words --
Among other possibilities, yes.

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #167 on: November 24, 2014, 04:41:03 AM »
I have no doubt what you say is true. But I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with. Of course I need to find an unsuspecting biz jet in 1/72nd scale to steal the engines from.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #168 on: November 24, 2014, 07:06:17 AM »
I have no doubt what you say is true. But I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with. Of course I need to find an unsuspecting biz jet in 1/72nd scale to steal the engines from.
Find an unsuspecting A-10 for a bit of overkill.  Best bet is finding a 1/72 30-series Learjet.  In 1/48, the Falcon 10 kit from Hasegawa would be perfect since the Skyfox used the same engines and nacelles and it could carry over.  For the F-86 kit, you could separate the fuselage at the point where it splits for engine removal and fabricate a new rear fuselage using the same tail surfaces.  Put a sharply sloped-down nose on it, with the guts and windows of a modern targeting pod and use it as a "Fast-FAC" that can designate targets for incoming "fast movers".

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #169 on: November 24, 2014, 08:47:28 AM »
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #170 on: November 24, 2014, 09:19:45 AM »
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #171 on: November 24, 2014, 09:36:49 AM »
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.


Engines off a 1/72 Canadair Challenger would work there I think, or a Canadair CRJ200. Or maybe off a BAe 125
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 09:42:13 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
    • SketchUp 3D Warehouse - My Digital Models
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #172 on: November 24, 2014, 10:02:09 AM »
I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with.
How about an overall green Sabre as an OA-86/A-86 Sabre in U.S. Army service? 

Some modifications to consider:

- Reduce the number of guns to four (gives you more rounds for the remaining weapons which means more strafing passes)

- Add inflight refueling probe from an F-100 Super Sabre or the A-4 Skyhawk for hose and drogue refueling.  Not sure where the best location would be but it would make perfect sense to have AAR capability for range and loiter purposes over the objective.   

- Add a fifth and sixth stores pylon outboard of the existing stations.  This would give the aircraft six stores pylons, of which two would almost always be dedicated to fuel stores. 


Some weapons to consider for arming your Army OA-86/A-86:

- Three shot 4.5"(115 mm) FFAR rockets that were used on the P-47 and P-51 before the introduction of the 5.0" (127 mm) HVAR

- HVAR 5.0" (127 mm) aircraft rockets on the special rocket mounts that were available on the outboard wing sections (these were spring-loaded so that after the rocket fired it would retract flush into the wing).  This same feature was also used on some versions of the F-84F Thunderjet.  I believe the normal load of HVAR on the F-86 was eight rockets (four per wing). 

- Other stores would include general purpose bombs, fragmentation bombs, fire bombs, cluster bombs, munitions clusters, flares, smoke tanks, chemical weapons dispensers and other stores up to the weight limits of each pylon. 

Note there is no suggestion of air-to-air missiles as that would impinge on the responsibilities of the Air Force so the ground attack Sabre would have to rely on machine guns or speed to defend against any air threat.  Not sure if the USAF would have accepted it but as a what-if it is almost ideal. 

The only other modification I could think of would be to upgrade the ejection seat and give it a new canopy with more room to view things.  Maybe the canopy from an A-10 would work? 

Later variants of the OA-86/A-86 might be given the capability to carry and launch guided weapons such as the Pave Way series Laser Guided Bombs, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-114 Hellfire, and other modern air to surface weapons if it were to soldier on for any length of time. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 08:29:35 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #173 on: November 24, 2014, 10:04:28 AM »
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.


Engines off a 1/72 Canadair Challenger would work there I think, or a Canadair CRJ200. Or maybe off a BAe 125
if memory serves me correctly, there was a kit of the HS.125-600 with turbofan engines in 1/72; that would be ideal for this Sabre conversion.  1/72 CRJ200 engines would be the same size as A-10 engines and a bit overpowering for the Sabre, 1/144 CRJ200 engines would work out as "just right".

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #174 on: November 24, 2014, 10:35:38 AM »
Revell 1/100 A-10 kit engines power the Slowy Jet.
Thatz a possibility.

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #175 on: November 25, 2014, 01:06:01 AM »
I have the 1/100 A-10 kit. I should try it. Like I need to start another project. I should check the biz jets you guys mentioned too
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:44:34 AM by kerick »

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #176 on: November 25, 2014, 02:26:47 AM »
Maybe use the YF-93 as the basis for this "skybox" style creation:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #177 on: November 25, 2014, 08:55:35 AM »
It would be hard to stick with the Skyfox comparison for a backstory as most F-86s that have survived are museum pieces by now. Whiff world will allow me to stretch the "truth" a little more I hope. Or I could fashion some pods that look like they contain turbojets and say they are J-85s.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #178 on: November 26, 2014, 01:42:57 AM »
Have it as being upgraded by some South American or African nation maybe…or simply a different development path?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #179 on: November 26, 2014, 05:26:11 AM »
An Air Force somewhere that had been gathering all the Sabre airframes and parts they could find from around the world. (There were a lot of Sabres built!) One day they started putting things together, not enough engines so civil biz jet engines were aquired. Don't ask questions and we won't have to lie to you......

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2014, 05:32:37 AM »
Cross posting some inspiration:



From Sabre Dingo


Just realised what's been bugging me about this profile. In the Sabre, the intake duct goes under the cockpit floor and then up to the centreline to meet the engine, so the back-seater in the TF-86 actually sat higher than the pilot, not lower. The side profile of the TF-86 on Airmodel's site that Rickshaw linked confirms this. Can't link it from their site but here's another profile that shows what I'm talking about:




Interestingly, Dassault produced a near equivalent of this called the Mystere IVN, using the Mystere IV airframe, AN/APG-33 radar and an Avon engine:



The AdA evaluated it but ended up choosing the Vautour and the F-86K instead. IIRC, the principle objection to the IVN was lack of fuel.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #181 on: October 05, 2015, 11:00:36 PM »
I've been looking through the old, but still excellent, book on the Sabre and derivatives by Eric Morgan and I noticed something, the Orenda version fitted to the Sabre Mk.6 quite matches the Avon and Sapphire in the Australian Sabres and Navy Furies, respectively, without needing the higher airflow either requires.  So, what if Australia had gone in with Canada on Sabre development and not had to do as extreme a redesign for their use?  By the same token, imagine Orenda-powered Furies flying from RCN carriers.

Offline Geoff

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2016, 06:33:26 PM »
If this has been mentioned somewhere else I apologise.

At least one F-86 (and I believe a small batch) was delivered to the Iraqi air force at the time of the revolution but never entered service as the head of the AF was a communist and wanted closer ties with the USSR. Just a thought.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2016, 08:34:54 AM »
I've been looking through the old, but still excellent, book on the Sabre and derivatives by Eric Morgan and I noticed something, the Orenda version fitted to the Sabre Mk.6 quite matches the Avon and Sapphire in the Australian Sabres and Navy Furies, respectively, without needing the higher airflow either requires.  So, what if Australia had gone in with Canada on Sabre development and not had to do as extreme a redesign for their use?  By the same token, imagine Orenda-powered Furies flying from RCN carriers.

I've often been enamoured of the John Blaxland idea of greater co-operation between Australia and Canada.   We are both Dominions, of a similar size and have similar political outlooks, aspirations and views on most issues.  However, in real life Oz always looked to first the UK and then later the US for its ideas, politics and defence materiale'.  It was a shame really, as there were many opportunities which were missed and continue to be missed.  If, after WWII, Canada had, had a more Pacific view in it's foreign policy and Australia a more Northwards view in it's, there could have been quite a meeting of views.   Canada however remained firmly locked on the North Atlantic and hence Europe, while Oz looked primarily to Asia.

It might have seen greater co-operation in South Korea, acted as a brake on our involvement in Vietnam and seen greater co-operation in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Blaxland hypothesised in 2002 a joint Canadian-Australian Brigade in Iraq in 2003.   We both operated Leopard 1s, M113s.  Canada decided to purchase Leopard 2s, we decided to purchase M1s.   In the air, you have your aforementioned Sabre possibility.  If we had both gone into the great white hope of the Canadians, the CF-105, it might not have been so easily cancelled.   We did need a Mach 2 fighter at the time and the CF-105 was supposedly exemplary.  Instead we ended up with the Mirage III and the Canadians with the F-104.   :(

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #184 on: February 18, 2016, 02:09:58 AM »
Canada looked to the Atlantic for the simple reason that the Ottawa powerbase was completely Anglo-Centric,
the powersharing with the West Coast that a Pacific view would have entailed simply wasn't going to happen. Hell,
the Ottawa establishment still considers the West and West Coast as backwards upstarts.

The F-104 was never intended to fill the continental air defense role envisioned for the CF-105, that role was
filled by the F-101, the F-104 was picked to fulfill NATO commitments, and probably would have been purchased
for that role even if the CF-105 had proceeded.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Online finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #185 on: February 18, 2016, 02:43:08 AM »
Is exactly the intra Canada relationship I encountered from discussing Canadian politics with British Columbia friends.
Right on,,, couldn't said it better !

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #186 on: February 18, 2016, 06:19:52 AM »
In the US try talking about anything with a New Yorker.

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #187 on: May 22, 2016, 07:34:20 PM »
John Lacey posted some F-86Ds in RAF colours:





Source: Facebook - John's Aircraft & Armour Profile Page
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 07:57:34 PM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #188 on: February 12, 2017, 11:11:13 PM »
G’day gents

I've once again been looking through Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects (page 50 & 51) - the precursor to the F-100 Super Sabre!

I'm thinking of a backstory pertaining to a more conservative evolution of the F-86 Sabre design by North American Aviation, as opposed to them taking a more riskier and expensive jump directly to the F-100 Super Sabre.
As in the case of the Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau did with their improving of the combat tested and proven MiG-15 Fagot, which evolved into the improved MiG-17 Fresco, before they took the jump to the supersonic and more radical MiG-19 Farmer design!

So it is, that I'm hoping, that someone out there might have 3-view drawings or profiles of the proposed 'Advanced F-86 / Sabre 45' or if someone is willing to have a crack at creating some of these 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' profiles. 

P.S. I have to apologise, as I only have this picture from the book!!

M.A.D

Just realised how much these look like the Super Mystere B2, I wonder if you could bash an advanced sabre out of a super mystere?

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #189 on: April 09, 2017, 04:24:57 AM »
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #190 on: April 10, 2017, 03:10:47 PM »
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:




Yes, that's different Greg!

M.A.D

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #191 on: April 11, 2017, 12:27:40 PM »
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:



Please tell me decals of this variant are available.  That has to be done.

Offline kim margosein

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #192 on: April 12, 2017, 06:30:36 AM »
Some company years ago did a generic RAAF sheet which included some boxing kangaroo roundels.  This is astounding.  The only other aircraft I have seen with these rondels is a deHavilland Beaver.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #193 on: April 13, 2017, 03:30:14 AM »
The only other aircraft I have seen with these rondels is a deHavilland Beaver.


Indeed.





BTW, here is the original voting choice for which Roundel to use:

« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 03:41:37 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #194 on: April 13, 2017, 03:39:00 AM »
Some company years ago did a generic RAAF sheet which included some boxing kangaroo roundels. 


There is/was also a set in both 1/72 and 1.48 from Max Decals for the Beaver (it was part of their Antarctic Aviation Series):

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #195 on: April 13, 2017, 03:42:52 AM »
And just closing off the discussion re roundels, there is this:



I understand the painter is still trying to extract his WOE's boot from his rear end... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #196 on: September 14, 2017, 02:48:19 PM »
Subtle crossings between SMB2 and Sabre.


Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2018, 02:44:03 AM »
Some RW Sabre design information.

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2018, 06:48:34 AM »
Thinking of an F-86K with F-86L wing and Canadair Sabre Mk.6 engine fit as a "low" part of a "high-low" interceptor mix for Canada, and possibly others.

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2018, 02:48:59 PM »
I was thinking Canuckistan K with Sabre 6 wings, no tip extension.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.