Author Topic: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration  (Read 23505 times)

Offline Weaver

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2012, 10:41:38 AM »
Quote
Posted by: GTX_Admin
« on: 11 February 2012, 20:46:52 » 
Quote
Quote from: Maverick on 11 February 2012, 20:35:30
Greg, that's actually the Versuchsflakwagen (or more properly 8.8cm Flak auf Sonderfahrgestell PzSfl IVc).  The baseline chassis was a heavily modified Pz IV chassis that had started life as a tank destroyer, but redeveloped into a Flakwagen.



Actually the vehicle shown is a Panzerkampfwagen V "Panther" derived vehicle.  Check out the wheel/track layout.



My book says that this vehicle's chassis used a mixture of Panzer IV and Sdkfz 9 half-track components. If you look at the wheels, they're totally different in design (perforated, for a start) from those of the Panther, even though they overlap in the same way. They are however, very similar to the half-track's.







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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 02:52:59 PM »
Quote
Posted by: GTX_Admin
« on: 11 February 2012, 20:46:52 » 
Quote
Quote from: Maverick on 11 February 2012, 20:35:30
Greg, that's actually the Versuchsflakwagen (or more properly 8.8cm Flak auf Sonderfahrgestell PzSfl IVc).  The baseline chassis was a heavily modified Pz IV chassis that had started life as a tank destroyer, but redeveloped into a Flakwagen.



Actually the vehicle shown is a Panzerkampfwagen V "Panther" derived vehicle.  Check out the wheel/track layout.



My book says that this vehicle's chassis used a mixture of Panzer IV and Sdkfz 9 half-track components. If you look at the wheels, they're totally different in design (perforated, for a start) from those of the Panther, even though they overlap in the same way. They are however, very similar to the half-track's.




It was one of those odd experiments the Germans kept trying to save money.  They needed a large vehicle to carry a 88mm FLaK gun but they didn't want to the expense.  Someone though, "Hey what if we mix up a few existing components, perhaps that will save money and weight!"  The hull was essentially a Panzer IV, the running gear from the 18 Ton half-track.  The result was a hybrid that didn't work very well.  The running gear was too light for the hull and kept breaking, so only one or two were ever built.   

They would have been better off using a Panzer III/IV hull, as they did on the Hummel and Nashorn SPGs - which combined the hull of a Panzer IV with the running gear of a Panzer III.  They were created at the end of the production run of the Panzer III.  They couldn't upgrade the Panzer III but they found that many of the contractors weren't able to build Panzer IV components so they combined the two vehicles.  However, that occurred after this particular vehicle was built.

Offline Weaver

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 03:52:13 AM »
Cheers - I wondered what the "logic" behind it was.... ???

Slightly off-topic, but look how freaking BIG those Sdkfz.9 FAMOs were! When you see them without people to scale them to, they look like long, half-track cars, but they're actually HUGE. The engine was, I think, not far removed from the Panzer IV engine in both design and power.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 06:30:14 PM »
They were the primary armoured recovery vehicle for most of the war for the Germans.  One could pull a Panzer IV.  Two coupled could pull a Panther or a Tiger.  They were originally designed as gun tractors for heavy artillery but they decided they could use them for recovery and they worked well.

Offline dy031101

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2012, 08:46:01 AM »
Lately I was revisiting some of the late-war British AFVs armed with the 17-pdr.

IIRC, British late-war tanks designs already had their foundations laid down on requirements made in the aftermath of Fall of France, so they were pretty much optimised for what was available at the time- 2 pdr and 6 pdr- for their main guns.  6-pdr worked well enough against the primary Axis tanks back then, and 17-pdr was pretty much prototypes pressed into combat at that point.  Only when they made it back to the European mainland did that decision really come back to haunt them.

Did Germany possess any tank design that, if placed into production, would have motivated the British into putting a 17-pdr on a tank (or at least coming up with a 77mm HV) sooner?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 09:34:50 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »
Lately I was revisiting some of the late-war British AFVs armed with the 17-pdr.

IIRC, British late-war tanks designs already had their foundations laid down on requirements made in the aftermath of Fall of France, so they were pretty much optimised for what was available at the time- 2 pdr and 6 pdr- for their main guns.  6-pdr worked well enough against the primary Axis tanks back then, and 17-pdr was pretty much prototypes pressed into combat at that point.  Only when they made it back to the European mainland did that decision really come back to haunt them.

Did Germany possess any tank design that, if placed into production, would have motivated the British into putting a 17-pdr on a tank (or at least coming up with a 77mm HV) sooner?

Kind of similar line: the Russians knew all about the Tiger I well before it arrived in North Africa, but they didn't share their info when asked about a rumoured German heavy tank by allied intel. What if they had?

British Intel got wind of the Tiger I, to the extent of knowing it's weight, armour and gun calibre, in early Nov. 1942. They asked the Moscow mission to obtain more details, but the Russian didn't respond until after April 1943, by which time the British had already captured one in North Africa. The Russians had first engaged one in August 1942 outside Leningrad.....

It's not so much the sheer lead time (4-5 months) that's important as the timing: in between the Russians meeting one and the British meeting one, the combat debut of the Sherman happened, which led to an unfortunately complacent decision to standardise on the American 75mm for future British tanks. Given the inertia of the British requirement-design-development-production process, this was still having a serious effect long after it was shown to be flawed.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 03:55:35 PM »
Superdope (new member here on BTS) has built a pair of rather interesting what-if projects involving a 12.8 cm PaK mounted on a King Tiger and a Tiger I hull and describing them both as "streetfighters in his original posts at Missing-Lynx forums. 

I am linking both topics to our own forum to share superdopes's work and ingenuity here on BTS and to welcome superdope to the forums where I hope that we will be seeing more of his amazing work. 

Superdope's Tiger 1 Streetfighter

Click on html or image to view OP at Missing-Lynx.com forums.


(Image source: superdope)


Superdope's KingTiger Streetfighter

Click on html or image to view OP at Missing-Lynx.com forums.


(Image source: superdope)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 01:54:59 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 01:55:24 AM »
They look somewhat similar to something I have been toying with....
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 01:58:06 AM »
I should add - they are outstanding works of art and just drive me to complete my idea!
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2012, 09:10:52 AM »
At Missing Lynx in the Constructive Comments Forum: VK 4502 (H) H - Berlin Stray Cat Built by Jari Hemilä using the HobbyBoss VK4502, DML King Tiger turret, with an 88mm/L100 gun tube.  Certainly makes for an impressive looking road block and the camouflage scheme is very interesting. 

Click on image or html to view topic at Missing Lynx. 


(Image source Jari Hemilä/Missing Lynx via Photobucket)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:12:53 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2012, 05:18:41 PM »
Nice.
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Offline Doom!

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2012, 10:22:50 PM »
Quite the burly beasties! Very cool stuff.  :)
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Offline raafif

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2012, 05:04:30 AM »
don't know why he used the DML turret - the kit turret was good (Porsche type) .... I do wonder why no-one has put an access/escape hatch in the rear plate of the hull tho.
Some of the "Heer'46" cam-schemes are whacky :)

link to my SturmJager-1 ...
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2012, 11:10:50 AM »
don't know why he used the DML turret - the kit turret was good (Porsche type) .... I do wonder why no-one has put an access/escape hatch in the rear plate of the hull tho.
Some of the "Heer'46" cam-schemes are whacky :)

I was thinking the same thing about the lack of an access door at the rear of the hull.  It would have made a lot of sense to have such a feature to ease the difficulties in loading the heaver 88mm/L100 ammunition. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2012, 10:05:23 PM »
don't know why he used the DML turret - the kit turret was good (Porsche type) .... I do wonder why no-one has put an access/escape hatch in the rear plate of the hull tho.
Some of the "Heer'46" cam-schemes are whacky :)

link to my SturmJager-1 ...
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1828.0


Wasn't the Porsche turret weaker in some ways? Like the bulge that the commander's hatch area had on the side of the turret?
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2012, 03:28:40 AM »
"Hans, did you hear about our new tank? They say the turret's at the back! No more having to crank the main gun sideways when going down a slope! Wunderbar!"

"They didn't tell you about the new main gun, did they, Fritz?"
Cheers,
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2012, 06:11:17 PM »
don't know why he used the DML turret - the kit turret was good (Porsche type) .... I do wonder why no-one has put an access/escape hatch in the rear plate of the hull tho.
Some of the "Heer'46" cam-schemes are whacky :)

I was thinking the same thing about the lack of an access door at the rear of the hull.  It would have made a lot of sense to have such a feature to ease the difficulties in loading the heaver 88mm/L100 ammunition.

Perhaps they preferred not to?  Two reasions as to why there isn't a hatch is because such a hatch would make manufacture times longer and would also decrease the rigidity of the hull.   By war's end the Germans were desperately trying to eliminate processes from their production lines to speed up production.

The Henschel turret is an interesting alternative, I have to admit.  Perhaps its meant to represent one of those one-offs the Germans were always building, perhaps an intact turret from a Henschel hull which was placed on a Porsche hull which had a damaged turret?

It makes an interesting what-iff, which ever way you look at it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2013, 03:17:07 AM »
Random Idea:  Tiger I or Tiger II as a combined Tank/Heavy APC in a similar vein to the Merkerva with the ability to carry a small compliment of troops.  Not sure how exactly to do it just yet...
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Offline tahsin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2014, 05:20:47 PM »
Have read it somewhere that the Tiger was first reported to be an APC by the British intelligence, a 70 ton vehicle with 100(?) troops on board.

Offline Queeg

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2014, 05:44:50 PM »
Random Idea:  Tiger I or Tiger II as a combined Tank/Heavy APC in a similar vein to the Merkerva with the ability to carry a small compliment of troops.  Not sure how exactly to do it just yet...


Not quite the combined tank/apc but it does tick the heavy apc box ..........




Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2014, 06:00:18 PM »
What scale?  Nice work detailing the 30mm cannon
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Offline Queeg

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2014, 06:12:26 PM »
1/72nd, its not mine it's Gordons from Cromwell Models. he did ask me if he could nick a few ideas from my Hummel SPW. He's also added applique armour and extra fuel tanks to some of the big E- Tanks too, like my modifed Panther III .........

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2014, 11:32:45 PM »
That does look great.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2014, 07:51:13 AM »
Some nice shots of WWII German tanks and AFVs from museums including a nice series of a battle damaged Tiger II at the bottom.

http://imgur.com/a/ir7Gu
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 07:56:15 AM by Cliffy B »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: German Tiger I and Tiger II tank ideas and inspiration
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2015, 03:51:50 AM »
Does anyone else look at this and think "Land Monitor"? ;D



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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