Author Topic: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 38669 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2016, 12:17:53 AM »
Odd thought - Late model P-38 re-equipped Allisons and four-bladed props from F-82.

I had thought about that too Evan, as I'll have a bunch of Allison F-82 nacelles spare when I convert a couple of F-82's to have Merlin nacelles

Offline dy031101

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2017, 11:50:41 PM »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1716995274981032&set=gm.1883154991899997&type=3&theater

Didn't know ROCAF had one of those (fighter version, not recon), too......
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2017, 07:15:20 AM »
I always wondered why Lockheed or the USAAC/USAAF never bothered to mount just 20mm cannons or an all .50"BMG main battery on the P-38.  With different ballistics between the 20mm and .50"BMG it never made sense to me as to why they (USAAF/USAAC) kept that suite of weapons for the P-38 when it would make more sense to have a P-38 armed with five (or six) .50" BMG or a quartet of 20mm weapons. 

Something I have been toying with over the years is an all .50" BMG battery or an all 20mm main battery for the P-38.  While there may not be room for a quartet of 20mm cannons it would still be a viable option with three 20mm cannons or five .50" BMG machine guns.  Either weapons suite would and could do well with destroying pretty much anything that flew or moved on the ground or sea.  Add in the 4.5"/114mm FFAR or the 5.0"/127mm HVAR weapons under the wings and fuselage and you have a very potent ground attack aircraft. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2017, 07:18:23 AM »
I always wondered why Lockheed or the USAAC/USAAF never bothered to mount just 20mm cannons or an all .50"BMG main battery on the P-38.  With different ballistics between the 20mm and .50"BMG it never made sense to me as to why they (USAAF/USAAC) kept that suite of weapons for the P-38 when it would make more sense to have a P-38 armed with five (or six) .50" BMG or a quartet of 20mm weapons. 

Something I have been toying with over the years is an all .50" BMG battery or an all 20mm main battery for the P-38.  While there may not be room for a quartet of 20mm cannons it would still be a viable option with three 20mm cannons or five .50" BMG machine guns.  Either weapons suite would and could do well with destroying pretty much anything that flew or moved on the ground or sea.  Add in the 4.5"/114mm FFAR or the 5.0"/127mm HVAR weapons under the wings and fuselage and you have a very potent ground attack aircraft.
Perfect use for the airframes without turbochargers?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2017, 07:39:07 AM »
I always wondered why Lockheed or the USAAC/USAAF never bothered to mount just 20mm cannons or an all .50"BMG main battery on the P-38.  With different ballistics between the 20mm and .50"BMG it never made sense to me as to why they (USAAF/USAAC) kept that suite of weapons for the P-38 when it would make more sense to have a P-38 armed with five (or six) .50" BMG or a quartet of 20mm weapons. 

Something I have been toying with over the years is an all .50" BMG battery or an all 20mm main battery for the P-38.  While there may not be room for a quartet of 20mm cannons it would still be a viable option with three 20mm cannons or five .50" BMG machine guns.  Either weapons suite would and could do well with destroying pretty much anything that flew or moved on the ground or sea.  Add in the 4.5"/114mm FFAR or the 5.0"/127mm HVAR weapons under the wings and fuselage and you have a very potent ground attack aircraft.
Perfect use for the airframes without turbochargers?

Or keep the turbocharger units for the interceptor version and lose the same for the dedicated ground attack version?  Removing the turbochargers from the dedicated ground attack version is sound but why not replace that system with an engine driven supercharger unit?  I suppose that would increase the length forward of the wings on the engine nacelles but a small price to pay for losing the intercooler units on the booms when the turbochargers are removed.  Robert's suggestion for using the F-82 propellers sounds like a great idea.  If I recall correctly, the P-38 was tested with Hamilton Standard three-blade propellers but the difference in thrust lines between the Curtiss propellers and the HS propellers would have required some modifications to the airframe and engine nacelles to allow the HS propellers to perform properly.  Kind of disappointing when things like aerodynamics get in the way of a sensible modification that would have give the P-38 a marked improvement in performance.   
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Offline jcf

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2017, 08:05:34 AM »
Because it was conceived as a 'bomber interceptor', the cannon was for the bombers,
the MGs for potential escorts.

Multiple M2s are fine against fighters, not so good against larger, probably armoured
bombers, if the USAAF had ever faced a massed bomber threat, they would have
switched to a multi-cannon armament.
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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2017, 04:16:04 AM »
There was this "Six Shooter" version with two 20mm canon:

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2018, 04:33:11 AM »
Random thought:  P-38 as turret fighter with turrets at front and rear(?) of central pod.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2018, 11:10:57 AM »
Random thought:  P-38 as turret fighter with turrets at front and rear(?) of central pod.
Front turret on bottom and rear turret on top?  That would preserve the pilot's sight line for landing.  You would probably need a longer center pod to add the one or two extra gunners required.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2018, 07:56:37 PM »
Random thought:  P-38 as turret fighter with turrets at front and rear(?) of central pod.
Front turret on bottom and rear turret on top?  That would preserve the pilot's sight line for landing.  You would probably need a longer center pod to add the one or two extra gunners required.

P-58   ???

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2018, 01:30:50 AM »
I was thinking of the turrets being right on the front/rear of the pod (though the pod will obviously need to be enlarged to accommodate).  Ideally it would involve something akin to ERCO 250SH ones such as that shown below:



Or perhaps something bigger such as the Emerson Aero 9B turret with 20mm cannon:



Either way, I was looking for a twist on the turret fighter concept.  I was thinking something twin engined with twin turrets.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:35:43 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2018, 01:40:54 AM »
Personally, I would go for the Emerson style one, more streamlined for a fighter I think ---  But even then I still think you'd need something like the P-58 because of it's size, the P-38 is a bit small -- and something would have to be done about the tailplane on either of them to have a turret right at the rear of the fuselage pod.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:44:02 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2018, 02:00:42 PM »
Way too small a pod for manned turrets, hell the droopsnoot version was
a cramped hell for the poor putz who had to ride there.

Elevating guns and/or rotating nose arrangements would possibly fit, and make as little sense as
they did when tried later. 
;D

One was proposed and a partial installation trialed on a P-80.

F-89 arrangement. Friggin’ moronic.  ;D  :-\


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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: May 04, 2018, 01:45:55 AM »
Actually a similar arrangement on the P-38 (possibly as a test bed) would be interesting.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: May 04, 2018, 07:18:17 AM »
Actually a similar arrangement on the P-38 (possibly as a test bed) would be interesting.
Perhaps using the Lightning "Swordfish" as the testbed?  That longer center nacelle could help.

Offline jcf

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: May 04, 2018, 09:21:01 AM »
F-80 elevating nose gun test aircraft.

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2018, 02:32:40 PM »
P-38 Folgore


Offline Volkodav

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2018, 03:28:29 PM »
reading a book called "rise of the bomber" at the moment, its about RAF doctrine and plans between the wars and it goes into some detail on turret fighter concepts.  A number of senior RAF officers believed the future would be twin engine fighters with nose and possibly tail turrets able to engage bomber formations in a manner similar to the was ships fought each other, i.e. chase down then engage in broadside.

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2018, 11:44:06 PM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2018, 11:06:55 AM »
P-38 Folgore



Very nice!!

Let us not forget that there was one P-38 captured intact by the Regia Aeronautica, put in Italian colors and markings (OD over grey) with the white cross of Savoy on the tails and used to intercept B-17's attacking Italy.  IIRC, the USAAF finally realized what was happening and set up a trap with a YB-40 and took it out.

Offline jcf

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2018, 11:39:09 AM »
P-38 Folgore



Very nice!!

Let us not forget that there was one P-38 captured intact by the Regia Aeronautica, put in Italian colors and markings (OD over grey) with the white cross of Savoy on the tails and used to intercept B-17's attacking Italy.  IIRC, the USAAF finally realized what was happening and set up a trap with a YB-40 and took it out.

A P-38 did land on Sardinia and was taken over by the RA, and was used successfully once, the rest is embroidered Martin Caidin bullshit. 
:-X
Here’s the real story:
”On June 12, 1943, a USAAF P-38G, while on a flight from Gibraltar to Malta, suffered compass problems and landed by mistake at Capoterra, Sardinia. The Lightning was painted in Italian markings, and transferred to the Italian Test Center at Guidonia. On August 11, 1943, chief test pilot Col. Angelo Tondi used the P-38 to intercept USAAF bombers on their way to attack targets in central Italy. Tondi shot down a B-17F, "Bonnie Sue", of the 419th BS, 301st BG. This was the only successful interception achieved by the P-38G, which was soon grounded due to the poor quality of Italian gasoline, which corroded the fuel tanks. I believe that this is the only documented example of a captured US fighter being used to shoot down a US aircraft during WW2.”
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2018, 01:27:13 PM »
This one:

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2018, 01:28:07 PM »
How about a Soviet one?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: October 15, 2018, 03:45:59 AM »
How about a Soviet one?
IIRC, there were some.  I'll have to go dig up the appropriate book and see what I can find.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Lockheed P-38 Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: October 15, 2018, 06:34:09 AM »
There was probably only one, P-38L "Blackie", damaged and left behind in Operation FRANTIC, repaired and flown by the Flight Research Institute at least unti 1947.