Author Topic: DC-3F  (Read 2197 times)

Offline finsrin

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DC-3F
« on: December 14, 2017, 03:03:39 AM »
Even though have four unfinished kit-bashes (one airplane, three ships) am starting another one.
While searching stash stumbled upon this build.  Not looking to use either kit, just saw the two sitting by each other and thought hmmm might work, lets check it out.
Surprised how well sized for each other the wing roots are.  Of course some some cutting and fussing is involved, no too much.  Was suddenly compelled to do build. 
1/72 DC-3 is being fitted with 1/144 Tu-95 wings to become DC-3F.  "F" for fast.
Turns out Tu-95 plastic is easy-forgiving to work with.  Changing props from contra rotating to single props.  After fiddling with engine housings and props found that if you assemble the right kit included parts just the wrong way (according to Revell), result is perfect set up for installing single props after wing is together such that prop shaft will not recede into housing when attaching prop and prop will rotate.  Which means can paint props off of wing and install last after aircraft is painted.  So nice !

Picture of boxes is attached.  In work pictures soon.


Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 03:54:23 AM »
That's an absolutely killer concept, Bill!

Are you going to swap out the tail planes with the Bear too or are the DC-3 ones already swept enough to work?

In either case, this strikes me as a potential worthy competitor to the DH Heron:



linky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Heron

Your imagination is off the charts, my friend.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 04:26:27 AM »
Thanks Brian. 
Not a "I thought of it" build.  Fate of kits being there together and working.
After looking things over  --  use Tu-95 or parts box swept horizontal stabilizers.
Move main landing gear forward some to stay a tail dragger.
Leaning to airline decals vrs military.
Corporate or private transport ?    Other ?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 05:13:26 AM by finsrin »

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 11:32:04 AM »
First configuration picture is attached.  Need to make some changes.
> Wings close but not true straight ahead. 
> Wings too long, need a clip. 
> Trying different tail wings.  T-38 main wings look possible.
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
You get the idea.  Is a start.  More to figure out !
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:34:37 AM by finsrin »

Offline kerick

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 12:08:13 PM »
Thatís looking awesome!

Offline Tophe

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 01:37:03 PM »
1/72 DC-3 is being fitted with 1/144 Tu-95 wings to become DC-3F.  "F" for fast.
"Fast and Furious"? Or/and Funny... ;) Thanks a lot! :-*

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 05:36:26 PM »
A wonderful concept!

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 06:53:25 PM »
Wow that looks great Bill!

I can see the benefit of lengthening the fuselage but if this were my build, I'd leave it as is since complications tend to slow me down and sap my modeling mojo.

I'm thinking civil or VIP transport. Personally, I'd be tempted to put Aeroflot livery on it just to mess with people.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 08:02:13 PM »
Thanks all  --  glad you like concept/idea/etc....

Have to agree:  "if this were my build, I'd leave it as is since complications tend to slow me down and sap my modeling mojo."
Messiness of cutting-patching fuselage probably destroy front finish.  Or clobber whole build.  Is decided,,, won't do that.

______
Later.... let comments sink in awhile.
Will put jetliner style sideways flipping landing gear in wing root area.  Can remain tail dragger, no problem.
Put on Aeroflot livery (need to check if have any).  Trailing wing bulges that hold Tu-95 landing gear become Vodka transport tanks.  Each tank gets filler and drain caps.  Politburo VIP transport operated by Aeroflot.
Or,,, go with US airline or MATS markings.  Trailing wing bulges are fuel tanks.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:37:24 PM by finsrin »

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2017, 04:56:06 AM »
I agree with everyone else: that first config photo looks just awesome! I want one already!
"He's more real-world now than whif..."

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2017, 05:25:45 AM »
> Wings too long, need a clip. 
Disagree, especially if you stretch the fuselage. The wings will look good on a stretched fuselage. I suspect the area of the swept wing is probably not much different that the regular DC-3 wing as it appears it has less average chord (especially nearer the tip) than the DC wing, even if longer.
Quote
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
May I humbly suggest adding the plug behind the wings? the wing sweep and position of the engines will move the lift centre aft, you need more mass (the plug) to balance it out. Take a look at the Bear. The wings roots are relatively close to the front of the aircraft.

Just some thoughts.

Paul

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2017, 05:58:49 AM »
Thanks all for comments.

Wings:  Agree with Paul's disagree.  Will not clip !
Fuselage:  Leaving as is.  Simpler, avoids screwing it up.  Landing gear placement will be close to original DC-3 position, remains a tail dragger. 
Remembering is a DC-3 refitted with higher speed wing inspired by Tu-95.


Offline Frank3k

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »
It's looking awesome already! The Tu-95 main gear may look good, too.

Offline jcf

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »
 :smiley: :smiley:

Puts me in mind of one of the DC-9 concepts before they settled on the aft mounted twin engines.
Model 2067 with four engines.

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And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
First configuration picture is attached.  Need to make some changes.
> Wings close but not true straight ahead. 
> Wings too long, need a clip
> Trying different tail wings.  T-38 main wings look possible.
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
You get the idea.  Is a start.  More to figure out !

As said above, leave the wings as is.  It's got a bit of Comet 1 look to it.
I would suggest putting the plug in between the rear of the wing and the door Bill not in the front. CG is moved way back as you have it now ----

« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 06:36:23 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2017, 03:22:54 AM »
Jon - good research.  Has flashes of Kawasaki P-1.  Which don't recall seeing model kit of !
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 05:05:01 AM by finsrin »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2017, 08:20:23 AM »
If you decide to go with Aeroflot and can't source decals, let me know. I've got the titles from that 1/144 Il-62M I picked up last time I was in town that I can send. They should fit if your C-47 is similar in size to the 1/72 Monogram Spooky gunship I have.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »
Thanks Brian,,, yet to browse decal stash.
Wing alignment adjustments are all cut/sanded/etc.  Starting final assembly now.
Browsed landing gear stash.  Decided to go with inward folding gear at near same longitudinal position a DC-3 gear.  Have gear in down position.  Not cutting into wing to make wheel wells (asks for disaster).  Will have gear doors in down position.
Tail wheel choices:   OOB, spatted, add open gear doors for retractable.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 12:31:16 PM »
If high speed is intended, I can see them going with a retractable tail gear, preferably one that retracts forward.  Done right, that could put the trunnion for this on the same heavy-duty frame as the rudder.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 12:38:29 PM »
If high speed is intended, I can see them going with a retractable tail gear, preferably one that retracts forward.  Done right, that could put the trunnion for this on the same heavy-duty frame as the rudder.
What about it being trailing design to turn like original during taxiing ?
Does P-51 retract forward or reward ?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 01:01:04 PM »
Forward, as far as I can tell from available data.  One book I have has a cut-away that shows the tail wheel mounting plus a drawing of the strut buildup.  I can scan these if needs be.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 01:13:22 PM »
Forward, as far as I can tell from available data.  One book I have has a cut-away that shows the tail wheel mounting plus a drawing of the strut buildup.  I can scan these if needs be.
Nice of you to look it up - Thanks for support.  No need to scan. 
Looked at B-17 pictures.  Retracts reward and swivels around any direction on ground.  No gear doors.  Will go with retractable design.
Figure 2500ish hp engines.  400-450 mph seem right?
Turns out inboard engine cowl not made for wheels up assembly.  Oops forgot to check that.  Time for bit of scratch building and delay.  UGH !
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 02:00:01 PM by finsrin »

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 05:51:44 AM »
No gear doors. 
Will go with retractable design.
400-450 mph seem right?
If you're going for a 400-450 MPH design, you're gonna want to put doors on all the gear. Those sorts of speed cause massive buffeting and turbulence around open holes. Remember, drag is a function of speed squared. Drag on a given feature from 275mph to 450 goes up by 4 times. Even with 2500 hp, you won't have any to spare for a dirty design.

As an example, the Bugatti Veyron has a top speed of 250 mph on 1200 HP. The first 250HP gets it to 150 mph, the remaining 950HP is needed to get it to 250 mph.

Food for thought...

Paul

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 06:41:29 AM »
No gear doors. 
Will go with retractable design.
400-450 mph seem right?
If you're going for a 400-450 MPH design, you're gonna want to put doors on all the gear. Those sorts of speed cause massive buffeting and turbulence around open holes. Remember, drag is a function of speed squared. Drag on a given feature from 275mph to 450 goes up by 4 times. Even with 2500 hp, you won't have any to spare for a dirty design.

As an example, the Bugatti Veyron has a top speed of 250 mph on 1200 HP. The first 250HP gets it to 150 mph, the remaining 950HP is needed to get it to 250 mph.

Food for thought...

Paul
Not clear on my part.  Was referring to B-17 has no tail wheel gear doors.  DC-3F will have gear doors.  Thanks.
Given 1/72 size of engines perhaps 3000-3500 max hp is reasonable.  Dunno.  Cruise power setting good for 400-450 mph ?
Is flexibility in specs with polystyrene engineering.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2017, 03:56:56 AM »
Not clear on my part.  Was referring to B-17 has no tail wheel gear doors.  DC-3F will have gear doors.  Thanks.
Given 1/72 size of engines perhaps 3000-3500 max hp is reasonable.  Dunno.  Cruise power setting good for 400-450 mph ?
Is flexibility in specs with polystyrene engineering.
Ahhh, sorry.

Well, if you're looking at turboprops, the RR Dart comes in at about 40" diameter plus the nacelle, which is smaller than the 54" of the Cyclone, so that's good. Darts went all the way up to ~3000 hp including the residual thrust in the RDa.10/1 version, so 4 of those would put 10-12000 hp on the wings, versus the 2800 with Cyclones which should get you to 400 kts on cruise with a cleaned up DC-3 fuselage (i.e. sand off all the rivets and panel lines!  ;) maybe clean up the nose a bit as well).

Paul

Offline pigflyer

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2017, 02:20:06 AM »
Keeping the whatif element in mind, just see what is in the spares box.  As for speed, how about half way between a DC3 and a bear?

Any road up, looks like a winner in any colours to me.
If I don't plan it, it can't go wrong!

If it's great, I did it. If it's naff, I found it.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2017, 06:36:30 AM »
Keeping the whatif element in mind, just see what is in the spares box.  As for speed, how about half way between a DC3 and a bear?

Any road up, looks like a winner in any colours to me.

Your styrenaneering background is evident.  Inboard engines are built ready for wing attachment and our styrenaneering staff is saying same thing.
DC-3F construction delayed/sidetracted by recent sales purchases (see Oopps, I bought another model) and initial concept formulation for them.  Now getting back to construction.
Pi_R_Squared calculations put engines at 3700hp.  Down rating to 3000hp for commercial durability.

Cruise speed:   DC-3 207mph, Tu-95 441mph  =  DC-3F 324mph
Max speed:   DC-3 230mph,  Tu-95 575mph  =  DC-3F 403mph
Thanks pigflyer,,, makes sense !
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:43:43 PM by finsrin »

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2017, 04:21:46 PM »
After delays due to recent model purchases (posted in Oopps) figuring build concepts for some of them and moving to appropriate stash,,, got back to building DC-3F.
More building to do.  Especially landing gear.  These two pictures show mostly how concept came together.
Has couple flubs to deal with.  Props do turn.  I like the one prop per engine look for a DC-3F.
More later..........

see attachments

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2017, 05:42:39 PM »
Diff'rent! 8)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2017, 06:17:11 PM »
Nice to see this beauty back on track, fins!

Looks very fast with those new wings!

Is paint next? I wonder what scheme you'll finish it in...

Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2017, 03:23:01 AM »
I'm liking
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2017, 05:41:57 PM »
Nice to see this beauty back on track, fins!

Looks very fast with those new wings!

Is paint next? I wonder what scheme you'll finish it in...

Brian da Basher

Working on forward placed main landing gear from parts bin.
Probably be a MATS transport.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2017, 04:54:25 PM »
DC-3F has transitioned to C-47F.  MATS is the only customer.
Not discarded build.  Now in a round robin of putty-sanding-painting-putty-sanding-painting-etc......
At some point wing to fuselage juncture will be declared good enough so can move on.
Got bit by C-47F and started parallel build of another enhanced C-47.  Seems notch or two easier to build.
Using special advanced research methods (not as good as BdB's) found info on C-47F to be compiled then released with final photos.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 08:04:23 PM by finsrin »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2017, 09:23:15 PM »
A MATS scheme is truly inspired, Bill!

With the recent snowy weather out your way (and mine), maybe add skis? This would be a great compliment to the Tupelov wings and might mess with people.

Following the fun and enjoying every minute,

Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2017, 10:05:15 PM »
After delays due to recent model purchases (posted in Oopps) figuring build concepts for some of them and moving to appropriate stash,,, got back to building DC-3F.
Wow! Great! :-*

Offline kitnut617

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2017, 11:27:09 PM »
You're not far off something that was really planned Bill, I've been reading about a British specification, MR.218D, and a proposal from Avro was their Type 775/450. This was to have swept wings, two RR Tyne turbo-props (one to each wing) but also a RR Spey turbojet in the tail like a 727 arrangement.

Offline pigflyer

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2018, 07:55:08 PM »
Very nice, very very nice.  Of course, it could be a Lim development of the Russian DC3, a Chinese version or any of the customer nations.
When it comes to the finish, the world is your lobster and I am really looking forward to seeing what your imagination comes up with.

Very nice,
Ian
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Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2018, 01:52:19 AM »
Appreciate your comments.
11th hour engineering change notice was released.  Switching from tail dragger to tricycle landing gear.  Original C-47 gear is going where Tu-95 gear would be.  Puts balance on fine edge.  Small amount of fishing weights in nose will ensure proper flight line etiquette.

Offline ericr

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 04:54:44 AM »

a very impressive combination : it does look fast !


Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2018, 09:18:39 AM »
Due to paint issues production line slowed.  On road to recovering.
Attached not quite current picture.  Also shows C-47H
Main focus is on C-47F completion.
Am always bitten by paint snake.
See attached

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2018, 05:44:25 PM »
This is notice that C-47F production is stopped.  Review of fit & finish was determined unsatisfactory.
Corrective actions are under consideration.
C-47H continues with lessons learned from C-47F being incorporated.

Regards
Production Management

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2018, 06:34:38 PM »
Best of luck with the corrections, Bill!

You've made fantastic progress and I've no doubt you'll overcome any challenges.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2018, 06:52:10 AM »
This build goes to boneyard to be donor.  Start again later with new kits.  C-47F is still to be.

Offline pigflyer

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 12:15:15 AM »
Just a thought me ole mate, build it wheels up?  Removes certain difficulties and means the viewers must use their own imagination
to overcome the troubles you neatly side step.

Any whoo, very good effort and look forward to your future efforts, and loving the H model btw.

Respect,
Ian
If I don't plan it, it can't go wrong!

If it's great, I did it. If it's naff, I found it.