Author Topic: What-if Engines  (Read 1294 times)

Offline simmie

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What-if Engines
« on: November 18, 2017, 07:00:15 AM »
Over the summer I found myself with some spare time and an over active imagination.  So I came up with a few what-if engines, some of the dimensions might be a little off as I haven't used trig for about 25 years since college.

X-24 Merlin
•   Type: X-24 supercharged liquid-cooled piston engine
•   Bore: 5.4 inches
•   (137 mm)
•   Stroke: 6.0 inches
•   (152 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   3298 in³ (54 L)
•   Length 88.7 in
•   (2250 mm)
•   Width 43.43 in
•   (1103.09 mm)
•   Height 43.43 in
•   (1103.09 mm)

H-24 Merlin
•   Type: Liquid-cooled H24 engine
•   Bore: 5.4 in
•   (137 mm)
•   Stroke: 6.0 in
•   (152 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   3298 in³ (54 L)
•   Length: 88.7 in
•   (2250 mm)
•   Width: 43 in
•   (1092 mm)
•   Height: 61.42 in
•   (1560 mm)

W-18 Merlin
•   Type: W-18 water-cooled in-line engine
•   Bore: 5.4in
•   (137mm)
•   Stroke: 6.0 in
•   (152 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   2473 in3 ( 40.5 L)
•   Length 88.7 in
•   (2250 mm)
•   Width 53.19 in
•   (1350.99 mm)
•   Height 44.27 in
•   (1124.5 mm)

V-16 Merlin
•   Type: 16-cylinder, supercharged, liquid-cooled, 60° V, piston aircraft engine.
•   Bore: 5.4 in
•   (137 mm)
•   Stroke: 6.0 in
•   (152 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   2198.67 in3 ( 36 L)
•   Length: 101.096 in
•   (2567.84 mm)
•   Width: 30.8 in
•   (780 mm)
•   Height: 40 in
•   (1020 mm)

 
De Havilland Gipsy Eighteen
•   Type: Inverted W-18 inline piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   1689.95 in3 (27.45 L)
•   Length: 82.6 in (2,098 mm)
•   Width: 54.55 in (1385.64 mm)
•   Height:  33.5 in (838 mm)

De Havilland Gipsy Twenty Four
•   Type: 90 degree X-24 inline piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   2242.6 in3 (36.6 L)
•   Length: 82.6 in (2,098 mm)
•   Width: 44.54 in ( 1131.37 mm)
•   Height: 44.54 in ( 1131.37 mm)

De Havilland Gipsy Sixteen (inspired by Apophenia)
•   Type: Inverted 60 degree V-16 inline piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement: 1495.067 in3
•   (24.4 L)
•   Length: 95.78 in ( 2432.69 mm)
•   Width: 31.5 in (800 mm)
•   Height: 37.4 in ( 950 mm)


De Havilland Gipsy Eight
•   Type: Inverted 90 degree V-8 inline piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement: 747.53 in3
•   (12.248 L)
•   Length: 69.42 in (1763.31 mm)
•   Width: 44.54 in ( 1131.37 mm)
•   Height: 32.987 in ( 837.87 mm)

De Havilland Gipsy W Twelve
•   Type: Inverted W-12 inline piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   1121.3 in3 (18.3 L)
•   Length: 69.42 in (1763.31 mm)
•   Width: 54.55 in (1385.64 mm)
•   Height: 33.5 in ( 838 mm)

Irbitis MI-02
•   Type: 36-cylinder air-cooled multi-bank piston aircraft engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement:
•   3363.9 in³ (54.9 L)
•   Length: 82.6 in (2098 mm)
•   Width: 47.244 in (1200 mm)
•   Height: 43.307 in (1100 mm)

Napier Super Lion
•   Type: 24-cylinder water-cooled W-block (3 banks of 8 cylinders) aircraft piston engine
•   Bore: 5.5 in (139.7 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.125 in (130.17 mm)
•   Displacement: 2923.2 in³ ( 47.888 L)
•   Length: 85.05 in (2160.33 mm)
•   Width: 42.0 in (1067 mm)
•   Height: 43.5 in (1105 mm)

Napier Sabre H-32
•   Type: 32-cylinder supercharged liquid-cooled H-type aircraft piston engine
•   Bore: 5.0 in (127 mm)
•   Stroke: 4.75 in (121 mm)
•   Displacement: 2,986.67 in³ (48.867 L)
•   Length: 92.25 in (2,343 mm)
•   Width: 40 in (1,016 mm)
•   Height:46 in (1,168 mm)

Bristol Hercules ‘Major’
•   Type: 21-cylinder, three-row, supercharged, air-cooled radial engine
•   Bore: 5.75 in (146mm)
•   Stroke: 6.5 in (165mm)
•   Displacement: 3540 in³
•   (58.05 L)
•   Length: 60.9 in
•   ( 1547 mm)
•   Diameter: 55 in (1,397mm)

Bristol Hercules ‘Super Major’
•   Type: 28-cylinder, four-row, supercharged, air-cooled radial engine
•   Bore: 5.75 in (146mm)
•   Stroke: 6.5 in (165mm)
•   Displacement: 4720 in³
•   (77.4 L)
•   Length: 68.65 in
•   ( 1744 mm)
•   Diameter: 55 in (1,397mm)

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Offline Modelnut53

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2017, 09:11:24 AM »
Brilliant idea. Now all we need are some what if drawings to fit them.

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 01:47:30 AM »
Some interesting ideas there.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline jcf

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 03:10:46 AM »
As Greg sez, interesting notions.

One note about length on your extra row Hercules, the length may increase by
more than just the depth of the added row(s), or it may not. 
;D
i.e the R-2800 installation in the F4U-1 was 88.475" long, the R-4360 (basically 28 R-2800 cylinders)
installation in the F2G-1 was 96.75" long, so big increase in displacement, and weight, reasonable
in length, however many R-4360 installations longer, 130" in the case of the Boeing XF8B-1.


Also the overall length of the Hercules itself varied by mark/installation.

BTW the base diameter of the Hercules is 52", the 55" number is as part of the
power-egg installation, which includes the cowling.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 05:41:04 PM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 01:22:59 AM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

Not sure about DH Gypsies, but  in reality the Sentinel did have the Cloverleaf-Cadillac - see details here:

https://youtu.be/-P1PZtZCup8?t=16m

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Offline perttime

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 01:50:33 AM »
...
Napier Sabre H-32
•   Type: 32-cylinder supercharged liquid-cooled H-type aircraft piston engine
...

How do you feel about a Napier Sabre H-48?

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2970.msg45256#msg45256

Offline Volkodav

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 05:33:31 PM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

Not sure about DH Gypsies, but  in reality the Sentinel did have the Cloverleaf-Cadillac - see details here:

https://youtu.be/-P1PZtZCup8?t=16m



Yes, the Gypsie was meant to be a more powerful replacement for the Cadillac model.  I have no idea if there was even a prototype, I suspect it was only a paper design or proposal.

Offline simmie

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 08:04:30 AM »
All the original dimensions used as a base for all of the above were lifted from Wikipedia, with some help from my Lumsden’s (Lumsden, Alec. British Piston Engines and their Aircraft. Marlborough, Wiltshire: Airlife Publishing, 2003. ISBN 1-85310-294-6).

Thus the specific marks used were:

Rolls Royce Merlin 61

I had hoped to work out the dimensions for a W Merlin along the lines of the Allison V-3420.  But the trig was beyond me.

Bristol Hercules II (Diameter is given as 55in)

I used the distance between the row centres from the drawings in the RRHT book about Sir Roy Fedden ('Fedden - The Life of Sir Roy Fedden' by Bill Gunston published by the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust)

De Havilland Gipsy 12 (King I) with help from the Gipsy I (Queen I)

Napier Sabre VA

I was aware of the Merlin H-24, trying to work out the external dimensions for this engine was the initial impetus for all of the above.  I was not aware that Napier looked at a Sabre H-32 let alone an H-48.
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Offline jcf

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 04:02:00 AM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

Found it, four Gipsy Major I-4, for a total of 16-cylinders, in an H layout, 410 hp.

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/04/12/australian-ac-tanks-part-iv-ac-iv-17-pdr-armed-sentinel-cruiser-tank/comment-page-1/





Cooling would probably have proved to be its downfall.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Online elmayerle

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 10:53:18 AM »
That's going to need a lot of forced cooling to function properly; I can see several fans and some careful baffling needed.

Offline simmie

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 10:44:42 AM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

Found it, four Gipsy Major I-4, for a total of 16-cylinders, in an H layout, 410 hp.

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/04/12/australian-ac-tanks-part-iv-ac-iv-17-pdr-armed-sentinel-cruiser-tank/comment-page-1/





Cooling would probably have proved to be its downfall.

ok this was just a red wrag to a bull.

Using the Napier Rapier as a starting point, I have come up with the following:

General characteristics
•   Type: H16-cylinder air-cooled piston engine
•   Bore: 4.646 in (118 mm)
•   Stroke: 5.512 in (140 mm)
•   Displacement: 1494.8 in³ (24.496 L)
•   Length: 61.954 in (1573.63 mm)
•   Width: 39.036 in (991.514 mm)
•   Height: 29.024 in (737.209 mm)

Given the capacity 450hp wouldn't be beyond being achievable.  The Rapier gave 350hp from 8.833 litres.

I agree that cooling this thing would have been it's big draw back (tank engine compartments not being the easiest to get the air to circulate around.  As an aeroengine it may well have been more successful.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 05:14:00 PM »
If I recall AGRA pointed out in an armour related thread that a cloverleaf arrangement, using a single crank, of three DH Gypsies was planned for evolved Sentinel tanks.

Found it, four Gipsy Major I-4, for a total of 16-cylinders, in an H layout, 410 hp.

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/04/12/australian-ac-tanks-part-iv-ac-iv-17-pdr-armed-sentinel-cruiser-tank/comment-page-1/





Cooling would probably have proved to be its downfall.

Very interesting article thanks for the link.

Offline jcf

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 11:41:11 AM »
A really good page on the Fairey P24 Monarch, with proposed developments:
https://oldmachinepress.com/2017/10/20/fairey-p-24-monarch-aircraft-engine/

"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: What-if Engines
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 08:23:22 PM »
Heres a thought, a RR Kestrel / Peregrine V12 tank engine to replace the Liberty earlier than the Meteor did.